Bizarre low fuel stalling

**applewildmom** · 01-27-2003, 05:37 AM

At 1200ml, it died @ highway speed w/3 gallons of fuel (indicator had just entered red, dealer confirmed) towed to dealer, who replaced rear fuel pump.  The tank is a saddlebag? Stupid design choice... Since then, has recurred 4 times, every time with between 3 and 4 gallons in tank.  Dealer has replaced relay, sender, upgraded software, put filter on uptake hose in tank, and replaced fuel pump seal when it started leaking after replace.  Last time it died, I was very nearly killed.  Have a loaner, and have started collecting NHSTA data, Lemon Law info ( for New Hampshire) Told dealer to either replace everything from the fuel tank to the engine or give me a new car.  Thoughts, anyone?

**barrysharp** · 01-27-2003, 06:47 AM

applewildmom:

What model year is your auto and any other model specifics would be useful to know.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Of the components the dealer has replaced which ones if any have been proven to be faulty? ie was the fuel pump bench tested and was it faulty?

Ask for your regional Volvo Specialist to get involved. I believe there's a 'roving' specialist assigned to each region. I had a steering column anomaly on my S80 in 2000 and had the specialist get involved who pretty much solved the problem and consequently had a service bulletin created to help with other Volvo owners who experienced same problem as me.

Keep at it and don't let the Volvo dealership relent.

I believe if the dealership holds your car for over 2 weeks you are then in a very strong position wrt to lemons law -- at least it's that way in my Washington state.

Post back.

**applewildmom** · 01-27-2003, 09:29 AM

The model is 2000V70Xc, purchased in 12/99.  I can tell you only that it has the winter option package (seat heaters, etc),  the auto/manual trans, and no other options, really ( I hate leather seats, so we got the 50/50 cloth.)  I really rack up the miles... it had 54K when I left it @ the dealer last Wednesday.  The service manager has called in the regional tech, who supposedly will be there this Wednesday.   According to my research, even though it is out of warranty, NH Lemon Law will look into a recurring issue, esp since the dealer tried more than 3 times to fix it.  Don't know about the pump bench... can you give more info on its function? The failure is random other than the fuel tank having 3.6-4 gallons.  I have read that German techs decry the secondary pump as being "weak".   If this is a design flaw, has it been corrected in later models?  There are no NHSTA listings for tech bulletins posted later than mid 2002, but there are some bulletins from earlier dates that I am downloading as they look suspicious.
Thanks for the reply...any help is greatly appreciated!

**tzunuum** · 01-27-2003, 09:31 AM

Hi applewildmom,

I nearly have the same problem, "fortunately" only when the car is parked with its nose pointing downwards. If I do have slightly less then 15 l left in the tank, and the car parks down the hill it is impossible to start the engine. Fortunately it does not happen when I am driving and while driving I can almost empty the tank. As I wrote in an earlier post very stupid design of the tank. So far it has happend to me 4 times that I had to catch my wife's car to get to the gas station to buy a couple of liters to put them in my car.

Best
Thomas

**applewildmom** · 01-27-2003, 10:26 AM

Model year is actually 2001, purchased 12/2000.  Sorry, had a brain fart.  
Thomas;
one of the incidents of stall occurred while sitting @ red light, nose pointed downhill, in 95 degree F temp, in inner city next to drug rehab center, with 10 year old son in car.  Volvo on Call at first told me they needed 2 hours to get to me, then 3 hours , then 4.  That would have left us there til 9pm.  Paid private tower to bring to purchase dealer, to the tune of $200US, which I was promised would be reimbursed.  That was 7 months ago.  
First incident occurred @ 75mph in cruise control, interstate 89 in NH temp 30F, left me on shoulder reduced to 3feet by snow bank. Towed to dealer, replaced secondary fuel pump.  
Third incident happened on rainy day, temp 55F, level road, 25mph, in town driving.  Walked to gas station, got 5 gal, filled up, drove to dealer.  
4th incident: 65MPH, level highway, 70F, slight drizzle.  Towed to nearby service station, gassed up, drove to dealer.  
Last incident was this month, car died on slight uphill section of state highway renowned as "most dangerous stretch of road in NH"  at dusk, 30F, clear skies.  Got a lift to gas station, filled up, drove to dealer.  The only seeming common thread is that there is no electrical failure , the car cranks but will not catch, and there is (if the tank holds 18 gallons US, 3.6 to 4 gallons of gas in the tank, and "75 to 80" miles left on the trip computer.

**barrysharp** · 01-27-2003, 10:46 AM

Maybe there's some form of blockage in the fuel system line that only becomes severe when fuel tank level is low!

Maybe request fuel tank be thoroughly cleaned out and fuel lines inspected for blockage. Or -- have them replace the fuel tank and be done with it.

It sounds like there's something in the fuel tank that clogs up the fuel flow to the engine/pump etc.

Can dealer say if others with your model are experiencing same problem?

Your experiences/problems are quite unacceptable IMO and dealer/VCNA should be making every effort to resolve the issue for you.

If you reported the problem before warranty expired and had the problem documented and associated with your VIN then I'd say you're justified in requesting the fix/cost be done under warranty.

Don't give up -- persist aggressively -- discuss issue(s) with dealership owner.

When car is towed to dealership shop after encountering this problem can the shop start the car suuceesfully without putting extra fuel in? If they can't they should be able to figure this one out. No fuel getting to injection system means fuel line blocked, pump failure, no fuel in tank, faulty fuel gauge meaning even though it says 80 miles left there's none left, maybe air in the line somehow!

**cbob** · 01-27-2003, 04:57 PM

The first thing that occurs to me, when you mention NH, snowbanks/hot weather, "racking up the miles" and your habit of letting your tank get down into the "red" 3-4 gallon mark, is :

You got a tank full of water!

I saw this many times when I lived in the East, and have therefore adopted the habit of always keeping the tank topped off, especially in cold weather. If you only buy 1/2 tank at a time, it should be "the top 1/2".

Do you park in a heated area in the winter, or take long trips?

A 1/2 full tank subjected to warming/cooling cycles can condense enough water in a year to build up several litres of water.

The water is heavier than gasoline, and sits in the bottom of the tank, which is normally OK, since the manufacturers know this, and position the fuel pickup off the bottom where most of the rust and water accumulate.
Until you get low on gas, or are going up (or down, depending on where the pickup is located) a hill.
Granted, most modern vehicles have a filter that takes out any rust (until it clogs), but a filter won't remove water.
Your Volvo won't run on the high percentage of water you have when the tank is low on fuel.

Every used car I have owned has had water and/or rust in the tank, so now I use a water scavenger (alcohol based) at regular intervals to keep the condensation mixing with the fuel.
If you do run the tank below 1/4 full, say on a trip, be sure to fill it up *before* parking it for the night. Especially if you park in the cold.
I'd be interested to see what you find, if you ask Volvo to drain your tank, although that might be difficult to do.
For safety reasons, most tanks do not have a low point drain, and must be removed or pumped out.
My E-Type had the tank installed *before* the boot trim, and I had to chisel off the rivets to remove the tank, to dump the last of the fuel/water/rust, so I could repair the rust holes in the bottom of the tank. ( I was young, foolish and could not afford a new tank).

I was lucky with my last vehicle (before the XC), as the previous owner had just had the fuel tank replaced - it was rusted out! I asked him about his fuelling habits, and found that he normally ran the tank almost empty, then "put in $20". Hardly more than 1/2 full at today's prices. Apparently (I found out later) this is quite a common problem with the Cherokee, due to the "condensation prone" location of the tank.

Michael

**tzunuum** · 01-28-2003, 02:50 AM

Hi,

the condensation issues sounds interesting, however, I always fill the tank up at the gas station.

When I first told my dealer about this all of them said, this is a common problem with the V70 and S80 they do have when there is few fuel in the tank and the car's front point down a bit.

I assume we have to live with that. Since it appears to me there is no solution. I have solve that I park the car up the hill at my frontyard and never had the problem again.

best
Thomas

**applewildmom** · 01-28-2003, 04:09 AM

Michael... This  does sound interesting..  The XC's tank is plastic.  Would that have any effect?  I had the tank opened up to put that filter on the uptake hose, which supposedly would prevent the plastic shards that might be left in the tank from milling from clogging the line/pump.  Yes, the car is generally (about 75%) parked indoors, but the garage is close to outdoor ambient temp.  Also, I run frequently run the tank down to fumes and almost never have a chance to gas up before it hits the red.  When I gas up, I always fill it w/93, without fail.
For about 1/2 of the year, I drive up to 300 miles a day on an incredibly tight schedule, and living in rural NH does not provide easy access to gas stations.  As stated prior, this failure is seemingly random.  If there was water in the tank, wouldnt the failure happen every time it got low enough to reach the water level?  Also, it failed again after the tank was opened and inspected, presumably emptied.  I have a feeling this problem is a software bug, or an electrical glitch, but I lean toward software because of the diversity of environmental/ road and driving conditions under which it has occurred.