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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    Waynesboro, VA
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    Default '02 V70 XC won't start; Bi-Fuel relay necessary?

    Is it necessary to have a Bi-Fuel relay in my normal '02 V70 XC?

    Just got my car back from the mechanic yesterday afternoon. It was in for a problem where it had CEL code P0016, was still running fine but then suddenly would just crank and not start.

    After getting it back, it was running OK with a new issue I've never had before, that the indie mechanic could not solve. It's a delayed start issue that I'm going to get the Volvo dealer to look at. But I happened to discover the first time I went to use the front windshield wipers that they did not work at all. The rear wiper worked and both front and rear washers, but not the front windshield wipers. The mechanic had done extensive work correcting a no start problem where it would crank and not start, and in turn it had flooded the cylinders and created a no compression situation. A real mess. But back to the present, I found in the front fuse panel that there was no FST1 relay which says, "WIPER FRONT WASHER". There were relays in FST2 "BI-FUEL" and FST3 "FRONT WIPER, HIGH/LOW SPEED" and some others which all seem obvious.

    Among other things that the indie mechanic had found under the hood that he fixed, in the passenger compartment he had replaced the antenna ring aka immobilizer in the steering column. I took the covers off of the steering column and everything was connected in there. Then on a whim, I tried moving the BI-FUEL relay to the WIPER FRONT WASHER position just to test my theory. My front windshield wipers started working. I thought, OK, that must be all there was to it, a relay in the wrong place. He didn't say he had removed any relays while working on the car but I sure didn't, and obviously there was a relay missing from position FST1. And I thought the missing relay was inadvertently moved from FST1 to FST2 position.

    I then tried to start the car and it just cranked and never started. So my question is, is there supposed to be a relay in the Bi-Fuel socket FST2?

    Note: even after the service that my independent mechanic did to get the car running, it wasn't totally right. It ran fine but the following issue he could not figure out. There is a check engine code (I don't have the code) and the car will crank for about a second and a half before there is a reading on the tach. Once the reading on the tach goes up from 0 to say 500 RPM, then the cranking engine will start almost immediately.

    But after moving relay FST2 to FST1, with no relay in the Bi-Fuel position FST2, I could not get the car to start. I want to make sure I didn't do something to prevent the car from starting with no relay in the Bi-Fuel position. I moved the relay back from FST1 to FST2 in case the Bi-Fuel position needs the relay there, but it still won't start.

    Before this latest issue with not being able to start the car, I had already called and made an appointment with the closest Volvo dealer next week to check out this issue with the hesitation in starting and also the CEL. But now my car won't start. The tach indication still starts out at zero and then goes up to say 500 RPM after it cranks for maybe a second and a half. But won't start.

    Is it necessary to have a relay in the Bi-Fuel position? And if it is necessary, could I have possibly flooded the car? I don't smell gas but I gave up on cranking it any more.

    I am anxious and would appreciate any help. At least if the Bi-Fuel relay doesn't belong there, and belongs in FST1 instead, then I know I simply have a no start issue and I didn't make anything worse. In terms of moving the relay, it just seemed like a logical conclusion that the relay had for some reason been moved from wiper to bi-fuel since my car is not bi-fuel and it was missing a relay in the wiper position.

    Thanks in advance,
    Tom
    Last edited by tmcmilli; 04-02-2015 at 11:14 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    Waynesboro, VA
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    Default

    Update, for what it's worth, in the engine compartment after putting the relay back in the Bi-Fuel socket FST2, and after talking to the indie mechanic on the phone, I pulled the fuel pump relay inside the passenger compartment down low behind the dash, and turned the motor over for a few seconds with the fuel pump disabled. Then I let the car sit for maybe 15-20 minutes, and with the fuel pump relay back in, it started and is sitting there running now.

    I was trying to ensure that I hadn't flooded it with the relay removed from the Bi-Fuel socket FST2.

    Note: for what it's worth, after turning the motor over without the fuel pump relay in position, I took the cover off the shrader valve at the fuel rail, pressed on the valve with a screwdriver and gave a good squirt of fuel into a rubber glove. It seems that at least the fuel pump is getting fuel to the rail, which never seemed to be an issue. I just wanted to make sure while I was thinking about it.

    Still need to know for sure whether or not it needs a relay in the FST2 position.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Virginia Beach
    Posts
    91

    Default

    2002 ocean race doesn't have one for bi fuel.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Waynesboro, VA
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    Update: I did discover after talking to the mechanic again that he had moved the relay and that I don't need a relay in the Bi-Fuel socket FST2 The car started about 30 minutes later when I tried again. It did the same thing i.e. cranked for about 2 seconds then as soon as the tach reading came up from zero to about 500 RPM it fired up. I realized later I may have over-reacted when it wouldn't start. I didn't want to keep cranking it for fear of flooding it like happened when it turned out previously the plugs were shot.

    I drove it back to the independent mechanic who attached his diagnostic reader and it reads the following codes: ECM 3000 "cam sensor signal too low" and ECM 5200 "Intermittent fault RPM Sensor faulty signal." Except for when I was there at the shop, my mechanic said the 5200 code had never shown up before, only the 3000 code and that very consistently over and over after resetting each time and driving the car again.

    I don't know that these codes represent a cause or perhaps an effect. I watched as the mechanic monitored signals on his diagnostic tool, and from what he showed me, both the crankshaft position sensor and the camshaft position sensor signals look perfectly normal the whole time, when monitored while cranking the engine or when running, even while cranking during the time when there is no RPM indication on the tach for the first 2 seconds. Signals were normal when it took about 2 seconds to start and also when it cranked without starting a couple of times while I was at the shop, for at least 3 to 4 seconds cranking each time. He would then wait a minute or so, try again and when it was finally good and ready, the motor would crank and start after 2 seconds and sit there and run normally. Note: he has already temporarily substituted a brand new camshaft position sensor which made no difference, then put the original back in, which again makes no difference, still behaves the same way. And the wiring ohms out OK to both sensors.

    I drove it today for about 90-100 miles altogether, with several stops mixed in throughout the day. Only once did it not start after the customary 2 seconds or so. When that happened, I had to wait a minute or two and try again, repeat, repeat, and finally on about the fourth attempt it started up and ran fine. The other 10 times (at least) during the course of the day, when I turned the key it started up on the first try after about 2 seconds. And once it starts, it runs quite good. There is sometimes a very slight roughness maybe once a few seconds after starting up but otherwise it basically idles and runs perfect for as long as I want to drive it. In fact when it does decide not to start right away, it seems that it will do it after a short trip. It doesn't always do it after short trips, but if it is going to mess up, it seems to do it after a short trip from one store to another. Otherwise on longer trips today at least 3 miles or 5 or 10 or 30, it never took more than one attempt to start and started after about 2 seconds or so.

    Can't remember if I mentioned all of this but the plugs have just been replaced with OEM type and 2 of the coils were replaced on cylinders 3 and 5. These died unexpectedly earlier in the week while the mechanic had the car sitting idling while he was moving other cars around, and suddenly without warning my car started missing like crazy while it was just sitting there idling.

    I'm not sure what to make of all of this. Hopefully I'll find out something definitive at the Volvo dealer next Tuesday without having to fork over too much cash to get it fixed. I don't have access to a VIDA-DiCE system.

    Timing is definitely set up correctly now. Assuming that the sensors and everything are OK, is it possible that the ECM can be fixed by re-programming? Or does this sound more like a failing ECM that would have to be replaced? Or perhaps something else wrong? I would appreciate any feedback that anyone has from knowledge of this part of the engine or from a similar experience.
    Last edited by tmcmilli; 04-03-2015 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Western Head, Nova Scotia
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    3,089

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    Sounds to me like you have a bad cam position sensor (PN 30713370 - $67.99 at FCPEuro) or the wiring to it.

    The text of the ECM 3000 low signal fault is (if intermittent): "Check signal cable between control module #A47 (#A47) and camshaft position (CMP) sensor connector #2 for an intermittent short-circuit to ground according to Checking wiring and terminals. Intermittent faults:Short-circuit to ground, intermittent faults . Check power cable between control module #A29 (#A29) and camshaft position (CMP) sensor connector #1 for an intermittent open-circuit according to Checking wiring and terminals. Intermittent faults:Open-circuit, intermittent faults"

    If the fault goes permanent then VIDA suggests "Checking connector:
    - Ignition off
    - Check camshaft position (CMP) sensor connector for contact resistance and oxidation according to Checking wiring and terminals. Permanent fault:Contact resistance and oxidation and loose connections according to Checking wiring and terminals. Intermittent faults:Loose connections (terminals) . Check particularly for any damage
    - Assemble connector
    - Start engine
    - Read off the camshaft position (CMP) sensor fault status
    When the camshaft position (CMP) sensor is tested diagnostic ready should be displayed. If the fault status displays that the fault is not found, it means that the fault was caused by loose connections. "

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers,

    Bill
    Western Head, NS CDN

    '08 BMW 750i (Black Sapphire)-204K kms to-date
    '05 XC70 (Lava Sand)-296K kms to-date
    '02 V70XC-gone @393K kms
    '05 V70R (Magic Blue)-120K mi to-date - gone
    '96 854R (Red)-real CDN-spec 5-speed R - gone @270k kms
    And other Volvos and misc. Euro stuff

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Waynesboro, VA
    Posts
    68

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    Thank you VERY much Bill for the detailed reply. Much appreciated. Sorry for the delayed reply. I was out of town on Saturday and got home this (Sunday) eve. Just logged on and read this. I didn't have Internet where I was.

    One of the cables does have external damage to the sheath around the wires. It turns out when investigating the present fault that the garage that previously did extensive work on my car, pulling the head to replace the head gasket, pinched the cable which goes to the camshaft position sensor. The outer sheath on the cable is sort of sliced through length wise but the insulation on the wires inside of the cable looks totally undisturbed, and these wires themselves look intact and measure out OK in terms of a simple continuity test. But based on these troubleshooting instructions I'll begin by replacing that cable.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Waynesboro, VA
    Posts
    68

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    UPDATE: took the car to the Volvo dealer in Charlottesville, Virginia yesterday. It took at least a couple of hours after verifying the electronic signals with an oscilloscope and the wiring verified to be good, the mechanic found the root problem. I guess you call this a timing gear? I don't know what the name of it is but it attaches behind the crankshaft pulley. The splines on this gear are I guess maybe half way worn off for the first half of the length of the hole, and are completely ground down to nothing for the inside half of the hole. See attached photos.

    The independent shop that worked on it last year (no longer dealing with them after the last go round last year) left the nut off of the crankshaft pulley. I guess that's what led to this gear grinding itself to powder. Fortunately one of the mechanics at the dealership had a good used one in his stash, so they were able to complete the job yesterday. The mechanic went through the entire setup of the timing and made it all right after replacing the gear and the crankshaft pulley and the nut.

    It runs fantastic! Very pleased. It was 8 hours labor but they have a Mature Volvo Owners' Club for the car not the owner but that would also apply in this case. My car was in the over 150K miles and over 10 years category so I got 20% off of parts and labor. Since the labor rate was $125 per hour it saved me almost $300 altogether. Still I had to pay $1199 but it was worth it. As long as I can keep this car running and the cost of ownership remains better over the course of time than starting over with another car, I plan to keep it on the road.

    Not knocking independent mechanics, I will still use one that I've found near to me who's pretty good. I just wish I could have bitten the bullet and pulled the car from the independent mechanic who was working on it last year, and taken it to the Volvo dealer instead. I wouldn't have had to revisit this issue this year and pay for the mistakes that were made in the past. And no I'm not going to try to sue the guy or anything. I've already cut ties with him last year and he wouldn't let me pay probably $400 that I owed him for the last round of repairs, simply because I contested 1 part that he put on that I felt they damaged. And he didn't give me a receipt for what he did do, and the car ran great after I finally got it back with the head gasket replaced and the oil leaks fixed.

    Anyway, glad to have the car fixed right.
    Last edited by tmcmilli; 04-08-2015 at 06:41 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Western Head, Nova Scotia
    Posts
    3,089

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    Jeez, is there any mechanic, dealer or indy, out there that will own up to what they do these days? It is fortunate that the timing went off just enough to prevent the car from running properly versus failing completely with the resultant crash of valves into the piston tops. Just another confirmation for me that I'm "glad" I do my own work; although after 45 years of doing it, it would be nice to just pay someone to do it right. If nothing else, at least if I screw it up the labour charge is free.

    To the OP, I'm glad that it all has worked out satisfactorily albeit having to more or less pay twice to get the job done.

    Good Luck,

    Bill
    Western Head, NS CDN

    '08 BMW 750i (Black Sapphire)-204K kms to-date
    '05 XC70 (Lava Sand)-296K kms to-date
    '02 V70XC-gone @393K kms
    '05 V70R (Magic Blue)-120K mi to-date - gone
    '96 854R (Red)-real CDN-spec 5-speed R - gone @270k kms
    And other Volvos and misc. Euro stuff

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