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Thread: Bull Bars

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDXXC View Post
    You guys are being overly dramatic-chicken little style.

    The forces necessary to injure someone with the front end of car traveling through space become overwhemingly unmanageable at speeds over about 10 mph. At those speeds a two inch diameter piece of aluminum tubing will have little or no difference on the injuries sustained by someone unfortunate enough to be standing in front of the moving car.

    Your needs are different than mine. My ways aren't right for you but yours aren't right for me. I need a stable place to mount driving lights.

    So, while opinions are great, evangelists tend to get on my nerves.
    You could think that, but you'd be wrong. It's simple physics, re the speed, impact distribution over surface area, deformation of the object, etc.

    With a bar you're transmitting energy completely into the thing you're impacting because the bar doesn't deform. Add to that you forcing the energy into a much smaller area and now you have higher psi. It's the same reason a knife goes through kevlar, but a bullet won't. Don't think so? Let someone take a swing at your tibia with an aluminum baseball bat and then a 2x4 flat bat made out of plastic with foam behind it that weighs the same. The fact is that the shape and material of the bar will absolutely increase the likelihood of injury.

    Aside from the impact physics, you also have the fact that the front end is designed to llift someone up and onto the car which further reduces those forces. The bars' very nature reduces that.

    Chicken little style? Over dramatic? When you've been hit by a car your opinion might be a little different. It has nothing to do with evangelism. It has to do with 800 cyclists being killed every year by cars in the US alone. I have no idea re pedestrian fatalities, but they are there too. It has to do with your need to mount lights in such a way as to prioritize that over other people's safety. It's that simple, but feel free to rationalize it anyway you want. If you need to mount a light you could create a small platform to do it on. I did it on one of my jeeps with a simple L bracket piece of aluminum.
    Last edited by littlewaywelt; 03-05-2008 at 10:58 AM.

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  2. #22
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    I agree with LWW's comments. When I was a younger man some angry drunk tried to run me over and, thanks to a front end design, I rolled up and off the hood of the car. I shudder to think what a set of bars would have done to me.


    Bill
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewaywelt View Post
    Chicken little style? Over dramatic? When you've been hit by a car your opinion might be a little different. It has nothing to do with evangelism. It has to do with 800 cyclists being killed every year by cars in the US alone. I have no idea re pedestrian fatalities, but they are there too. It has to do with your need to mount lights in such a way as to prioritize that over other people's safety. It's that simple, but feel free to rationalize it anyway you want. If you need to mount a light you could create a small platform to do it on. I did it on one of my jeeps with a simple L bracket piece of aluminum.

    Yes, Chicken Little Style.
    Some background on me.
    I've been a cyclist for well over 30 years. I've been in the cycling business since I was thirteen. My last commercial involvement with cycling was with the Discovery Channel Cycling Team-for four years. On a personal level, I ride a lot on the road and in places where stupidity reigns. I've seen it all. I've also been at, or responded to, fatal and near fatal cycling accidents with cars as a motorcycle mounted EMT and safety person for organized rides and USCF events. In all but one of the many accidents I can recall, exchanging the car for a Volvo would have had no effect on the outcome whatsoever.
    Professionally, I've been on the R&D end of delivering protective and performance functional apparel from space suits to time trial suits.
    Interestingly enough, in the motorcyling and cycling community there are ample examples of assinine maneuvers committed by Volvo drivers so much so that there are jokes about the the most threating driver to a cyclist drives a Volvo.
    As for your example of 2x4 versus bats....the difference in energy imparted is irrelevant at high speed. Bones will break, flesh will tear, aortas will burst and people will be injured or die.
    I dont disagree about the merits of the design of the Volvo at low, city speeds....I just think that you're fooling yourself if you think it matters at urban speed limits.
    "He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
    HST-RIP

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDXXC View Post
    Yes Chicken Little Style.
    Some background on me.
    I've been a cyclist for well over 30 years. I've been in the cycling business since I was thirteen. My last commercial involvement with cycling was with the Discovery Channel Cycling Team-for four years. On a personal level, I ride a lot on the road and in places where stupidity reigns. I've seen it all. I've also been at or responded to fatal and near fatal cycling accidents with cars as a motorcycle mounted EMT and safety person for organized rides and USCF events. Professionally, I've been on the R&D end of delivering protective and performance functional apparel from space suits to time trial suits.
    Interestingly enough, in the motorcyling and cycling community there are ample examples of assinine maneuvers committed by Volvo drivers so much so that there are jokes about the the most threating driver to a cyclist drives a Volvo.
    As for your example of 2x4 versus bats....the difference in energy imparted is irrelevant at high speed. Bones will break, flesh will tear, aortas will burst and people will be injured or die.
    I dont disagree about the merits of the design of the Volvo at low, city speeds....I just think that you're fooling yourself if you think it matters at urban speed limits.
    I too am an emt. I too am a cyclist (for about 25 years) raced cat 3, and while racing rode 300-500 mpw, and have been a daily bike commuter for the last 7 years rain or shine all year long. I have been dragged under a car once and hit on four occasions and intentionally run off the road twice. Making tt suits has nothing to do with this.

    At high speed, just like low, the physics come into play. The difference at high speed is not irrelevant. At 50mph maybe, at 20-30mph it makes a difference. Look at the avg speed for your city driving. I'd bet it's less than 20mph. You force that much energy into a small space with no absorbtion you end up with the difference of a fractured femur vs a shattered one with a ruptured femoral artery. I'm not saying that you don't get hurt in either case. I'm saying the bar makes the injury substantially worse. And that is not just common sense, it's a fact of physics. Energy absorbtion makes a huge difference. Ever see an F1 car break apart at 175mph and the driver walk away? ...and this has never been about speed; it's been about putting something on your car mostly for cosmetic reasons when it will cause another person injuries to be more substantial than if you didn't feel the need to make your car look cool when there are plenty of ways to mount a light set or increase visibility.
    Last edited by littlewaywelt; 03-05-2008 at 02:42 PM.

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  5. #25
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    I've just realized why they are called "Bull" bars. Can driving lights be mounted on a roof-rack cross bar, like they do on rally cars?

    Another cyclist here. Feeling vulnerable.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mink View Post
    I've just realized why they are called "Bull" bars. Can driving lights be mounted on a roof-rack cross bar, like they do on rally cars?

    Another cyclist here. Feeling vulnerable.
    They can, but they aren't typically allowed to be used on roads. Some states in the US go so far as to require covers on them when they aren't off road. They blind other motorists. Lights mounted above the driver are typically much more powerful than the lights you would need when they are placed down low.

    I installed upgraded Sylvania bulbs in my old 01 in the driving lights and the main beams. I noticed a big difference. I haven't bothered with our 05 mostly out of laziness.
    Last edited by littlewaywelt; 03-06-2008 at 10:17 AM.

    2005 XC70 Barents Blue & Taupe leather, deliv. 12/04, built 11/04
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    serviced by Red Bank Volvo, NJ & Volvo Westport, CT
    2001 V70XC~someone else's problem vehicle now
    VolvoClub ofAmerica

  7. #27
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    Interesting read.
    <1st guy> I ride a bike. <2nd guy> I ride a bike more. <3rd guy> I ride a bike and i've seen it all. And I can chew and ride a bike at the same time too.

    For crying out loud, then there is name calling??

    It's a roll of the dice, the bull bars will NOT save your life or your dear occupants.
    And surely not having them, will not make hitting someone a walk in the park.

    As for driving lights, I guess it depends on your location. Here in Toronto, we have street lights. And installing extra lights on my car would be out of the question, not to mention a cover is required by law. I understand in some states also.

  8. #28
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    I drive 550 miles through Michigan between school and home. A lot of the roadway is very remote. When the trip takes ~10 hours there is not way to drive the whole way in daylight, and road-side lights are only in place in cities/towns.

    I've had several close calls with deer and other animals crossing the road at night. I would love my XC to have headlights that turn to let you see ahead in turns better, but they don't. The high beams also reach more forward but not much better side to side. It can be hours between oncoming traffic depending on when I make the drive.

    This leads me to the conclusion that mounting additional lights could be in my best interest. After I get my tax refund I might be giving my body/mechanic guy a call to talk about potentially putting some lights on there.

    Where would be a good place to mount them if not finding a bar that comes from under the car? I don't think the bottom radiator opening is going to be high enough and could potentially get hit if they're forward at all. The bumper in front of the grille doesn't seem like it would be very stable for a bracket.

    For those that have had driving lights installed, did you have them wired into the high beams, fog lights, an independent switch, or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega5 View Post
    Interesting read.
    As for driving lights, I guess it depends on your location. Here in Toronto, we have street lights. And installing extra lights on my car would be out of the question, not to mention a cover is required by law. I understand in some states also.

  9. #29
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    So far I have not found a good place to mount driving lights but am thinking of fabricating a bar that sits behind the grill. That does present some problems of course. Somewhere I saw mount brackets that attach to the top of the bumper but have not been able to find them again.

    I also looked at the bottom radiator opening but also think it is too low to be really useful.

    On my X-Terra I have my driving lights aimed so that they illuminate mostly the shoulders and ditch. That configuration has on more than a few occasions given me plenty of time to avoid critters that like to jump in front of a moving vehicle. The high beams do a pretty good job of illuminating the roadway itself.

    I have those driving lights wired using the high beam power for the relay circuit. When I dim my lights the driving lights go off. The driving light switch disables them for times when traffic does not allow for the use of driving lights. I have not determined if the same setup can be used on the XC70 due to the requirements of the message center. I know that if I have a burnt out bulb the system tells me so but I'm not sure what would happen if you added extra load to the high beam wiring.

    Having driving lights on independent power and switch is possible but if you come over the crest of a hill and meet oncoming traffic it really is preferable to be able to dim both high beam and driving lights in one quick motion.
    Colin
    Kinuso, Alberta
    Canada
    2004 XC70 25T, Ruby Red
    2002 V40 (Wife's)
    2001 Nissan X-terra
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  10. #30
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    So i realize that this thread got WAY off track, but did anyone that emailed the manufacturer ever get a response? if not has anyone come up with an economical source for these bars?
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