manifold gasket blues

[drgian]

Hi All,

2 years ago, I relaced the head gasket on my 2001 V70 XC. I mostly followed a blog from Matthews Volvo Site and long story short, I got it done. Mistake were made and the one that I was unable to recover from was 3 stripped holes on head on the exhaust manifold side. So she ran and fine, but she was loud and leaking exhaust and I was exhausted (no pun) and it had been literally months so I took it to a mechaninc (damn it still hurts to even talk about this) to finish the job. He helicoiled the three stripped holes and put it back together for $700. I paid $1300 for the car so it really hurt.

Anyway, now I'm doing the same job on the a 2007 for my 2nd dauther. This job has gone way better all the way. I learned a lot the first time and I got the head off in 12 hours. It's back from the shop (it had a cracked valve, he repalced all the valve seals and 2 of the valves) and ready to go in.

What got me last time was those damn 5 individual gaskets. Trying to line up the holes with out tiny Swedish hands and get those studs back in there had me putting those studs in and taking them out too many times, this is how the three eventually got stripped. Finally I found a single gasket with all 5, but by then it was too late and those holes were stripped.

Here I just have the 5 singles. But, we had an idea. We bought hi-temp copper gasket maker and I put a small bead on each gasket and with the head out of the car. I got some spacers at home depot and we 'isntalled' the gaskets onto the head so they would be attached to the head when i put it back in the car. I've read guys not using the metal gasket at all and just using gasket maker.

Yesterday I took the bolts out and the gaskets are stuck to the head nice and tight and all looks great. However, one of the holes is already just barely stripped. There is one piece of metal on the bolt (I'll attach some pics). These bolts were just hand tight, no real torque was applied, just enough to sung down the gasket while it setup.

What I want to do I just continue with my plan and hope that this bolt will not strip any further, They only need to goto 25 NM according to the site I'm working off of now http://www.volvohowto.com/volvo-s60-v70-torque-specs-specifications/) so I don't think it'll strip. And if it does, I just need to take those bolts out and then do the helicoil. The alternative is do the helicoil now.

So that's the question, do I continue, or are we certain I'll need that helicoil? The last question is should I put that same small bead of copper gasker maker on the other side of those metal gaskets? I can only see it helping but I'm not sure.

Any input will be appreciated, thanks!

drGian

[hoonk]

those 5 individual gaskets. Trying to line up the holes with out tiny Swedish hands and get those studs back in there had me putting those studs in and taking them out too many times, this is how the three eventually got stripped.

? Are you installing the ex manifold studs after the head is on the block?

1. always use new ex manifold studs and make sure the threads in the head are perfect, helicoil them if needed and install the studs before reinstalling the head.

2. Put the gaskets on the studs, bend the edges out on the gaskets near each stud to help hold them on.

3. when putting the head back on the block, pry/tie the exhaust manifold back and up as high as possible - there is enough room to drop the head onto the block and slide the head back engaging the exhaust manifold studs into the manifold, then line up the guide pins for the head to block connection.

4. moving the manifold/turbo like that WILL damage the turbo oil return tube oring, but it's easier to replace that oring than installing the studs after the head is on the block

[Astro14]

Those gaskets go on without, repeat, without sealer.

You’re asking to repeat the job by adding this gunk to your exhaust manifold gaskets. It cannot handle the heat. Not even close.

If you’ve got the head off, then timesert (much better than helicoil) any iffy holes, install new studs*.

Then install the head, put the gaskets on the studs, and the manifold on the studs. Tighten from the inside (center of the manifold) to the outside to specified torque.

No goop. No antisieze. No gunk. Clean, dry threads. Clean dry mating surfaces.

Done right, it will be fine for years.

Get clever and you’ll have a chance to practice this again, and soon, when they fail.

*every manifold on an aluminum head I’ve ever worked with has had studs come out. The clean threads in the head are no match for the rust on the nuts, which overcome the installation torque on those studs. Since the studs are all rusted up anyway, get new ones. And new washers and nuts. Many kits are available from various Volvo suppliers.

[BillAileo]

Thank you for the reference to timeserts. I had never heard of them, looked them up and they certainly look very useful.

[Astro14]

Thank you for the reference to timeserts. I had never heard of them, looked them up and they certainly look very useful.

They are not cheap, but once you’ve got the kit for a particular size (like 6mm, very useful, or 8mm, the manifold bolt stud size) then individual inserts aren’t bad.

Timeserts are designed for high load applications, like head bolts. The depth control, locking, and integrity of the threads are far better than a spring coil (helicoil) insert.

I’ve used lots of helicoil on low load parts.

But for manifold studs, I would timesert. Absolutely.

[drgian]

OK, I'm convinced. I will get all new bolts to attach the exhaust manifold to the head. I will use timeserts on the block threads so I'm sure they are perfect. I will not use any gunk or anything like that.

Here's the remaining issues. Only 4 of the studs came out of the block, on the rest, the studs stayed in and the nut came off. How do I get those studs out? torque 2 nuts together and try to back them out that way? I was planning just to leave them there.

Last problem, when I took the head off, one of the alignment cylinder things stayed on the block, the other stayed on the head. I only had 2 (and the last car I did only had 2 as well). The one that stayed on the head didn't come back from the shop where I took the head for repair. Where can I get replacement 'head alignment shim' I think it's called? FCPEuro? Dealer?


drGian

[drgian]

"every manifold on an aluminum head I’ve ever worked with has had studs come out."

I just have one question, how do they come out? 7/10 of Mine did not and I'm not sure how to get them out so I can replace them with new ones. How do I get them out?

Thanks for your help,

drGian

[vtl]

Stud extractor. That one worked fine for my exhaust manifold job: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00265M8N4

[Astro14]

"every manifold on an aluminum head I’ve ever worked with has had studs come out."

I just have one question, how do they come out? 7/10 of Mine did not and I'm not sure how to get them out so I can replace them with new ones. How do I get them out?

Thanks for your help,

drGian

When I've removed the manifold nuts, the studs come with them. About half, sometimes more, sometimes less. As you loosen the nut, it gets stuck on the stud (due to rust) and the torque on the wrench overcomes the installation torque on the stud and backs it out of the head.

Now, to break the nut off the stud, or to remove the stud from the head, I use a stud tool is one like this: https://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-648639-Stud-Extractor/dp/B002INQORU/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_263_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ESR7Q0PEGYDZFJDS6CB4

Yes, jamming nuts together works, but the tool is so much better. I've not tried the chuck-type, so I can't comment on them.

I don't consider replacing all the studs to be "collector car" work - it's just a question of doing a job thoroughly...of doing it correctly. Like replacing brake springs when you do brakes. I don't think you get a consistent torque value on old, rusty studs, even if you clean the threads with a die, or thread chaser.

Perhaps I am overly particular - but when I fix something, it's fixed. I've seen the rushed, sloppy work of "professional" mechanics - water pumps that leak because they didn't clean the mating surfaces, parts that fail because bolts were cross-threaded, or improperly torqued. A wheel came loose on the XC after a state inspection - the bolts were never torqued properly. So, just because a "professional" would re-use the studs, doesn't mean that I am happy with that level of quality. Those guys are under the gun for time and cost. I work at my pace, do the job once, and do it right.

The manifold gaskets, studs, nuts, etc. were bought as a kit when I did the turbo work on the 2001 T5. It was not expensive.

[nickbw]

Astro you're an inspiration!