I want to buy an xc90 but have some concerns

[coachhomer]

I am having some issues with the engines that volvo offers. I know that the inline 5 is a great engine for a car and they have been making that engine for years now and it is very reliable. However, that engine was never designed to push around a big suv that weighs as much as the xc90 does. The xc90 has 800 lbs. on the next closest model that runs that engine. Can the 5 cylinder hold up? Time will tell. I test drove the 5 and 6 today and the 5 didn't produce enough power for me. So I drove the t6. Great feel on that engine. However, I am reading that it gets terrible gas mileage and my main concern is the question of how long has volvo been making the 6 cylinder engine? And furthermore, is it going to be replaced with the v8 soon? I am sure that the v8 will be a great engine a couple of years from now, but I can't wait that long. If they have only made the engine for two model years of the xc90 and they are about to phase it out, then why would anyone buy the t6 knowing that mechanics will have issues repairing it down th road with so few of them in the market? Are my concerns valid? I am ready to buy the volvo for all of the other reasons that make this a great car, but the engine is worrying me.

thanks,

scott

[Mr. P]

The 5 cylinder has been stroked to give more torque, and it does way down low at around 1500 RPM, max torque that low is great for every day driving. The gearing is what puts stress on the motor. The 5-speed gearing is easier on bearings than the 4-speed is. The six has more torque, and if you use it, you are putting more pressure on bearings. Having said that, I think either engine is superb, and I'd just go the route with very good oil, such as the Amsoil turbo formulated oil (see my detailed oil post) and forget about worrying.

I have three Porsches and drove our 2.5 5-cylinder today. It has plenty of torque to get it started, but it runs a little weak, by Porsche standards, in the 60-80 range, and up. However, I think the 2.5 is a delightful setup. Yes, more power would be fun, but being a Porsche guy, I like the fact that the car has a light weight aluminum turbo, allowing balance to be a perfect 50%/50% front/rear. That nice 5-speed, however, is made in Japan by Aisian, under Volvo license.

My wife's '94 850 turbo had essentially the same motor in a 2.3 litre, with 222 hp. The stroked 2.5 has more torque down low, and it's geared nicely for the heavier vehicle. Since I get my kicks with high horsepower cars on a steady diet, I just sit back and enjoy the ride in the XC. We love our 2.5 AWD.

Which ever one you get, you should be loving it. Personally, one turbocharger is all I really want to have to deal with.

Mr. P

[coachhomer]

thats great info, but you don't think that the 2.5 is too small an engine for a vehicle of the xc90's weight? and how long has volvo been making the v6? anyone know? the more i read about how poor the gas mileage is on the t6 the more i am leaning away from it.

thanks

Scott

[AWD*V70XC]

Welcome to the site coachhomer.

First impressions from you suggest you are very frightened of something! :eek: almost to the extent that you seem like a jack rabbit caught in the headlights. Frozen in time, you knowingly are getting a 90 regardless of the outcome, but as death is enevitable and you would like to killed by the right type of XC90. If you don't sort your life out right now you will regret your choice and end up hating Volvo for the rest of your life. :mad:

In the UK, your choice is made for you by the price of the XC90 & XC70. If you can afford the 90, gas concerns do not even enter your mind.

On the other hand, if you live in the US/Canada your choice is made a little more difficult by the fact that the price difference between the two models in almost nothing. Therefore you must choose the model you feel most comfortable with. I think with the hesitation and concerns you have over which model to go for you are becoming a 'moaner' :) (said with a smile) which ever model you choose (and it should be your choice, not another members' choice) you will always doubt if you ever made the right choice.

There are real problems with gas consumption on the XC90's for various reasons, the main one being, that the XC90 is a new venture for Volvo, a market place that they had to compete in, against the likes of the X5 and some big Yankee SUV's to survive the next years of its life. The XC90 engines will never be able to compete against some of the big Yankee wagons because their (Volvo) engines are not powerful enough and Volvo being a 'European' manufacturer has to compete with smaller engines in Europe to survive. I feel this will always be a drawback for Volvo in the States.

If you have such reservations about the 90, why don't you look at the XC70 as your first choice. It is a crossover of both Worlds, just as large as the 90 and can go just as far as its big sister without to many problems. The only real difference is the fact the 90 has seven seats. You will get better mileage from the 70 and indeed you will find very little wrong with the it to moan about. You will come to like Volvo for what it is rather than what you think it is, after a few months or years you can then decide if you want to 'upgrade' yourself to the 90 status and take all its problems on your chin with the knowledge that Volvo do make some good cars and some bad ones. I would hate you to think all Volvos are problem cars, because most of us will return to the dealer in time to get another one. :D

FWIW - I would love to upgrade my 70 to a 90 but I feel I will bring untold problems in any change over, the biggest problem arising from management and the constant ear ache everytime we go out.

My advice to you would be to look at the XC70, take it for a drive and let it mould itself around you, then go back to the XC90 and see which one you would be most comfortable with, then if you have any issues later, you will know it was not the fault of the car for your issues but your choice. :rolleyes:

Good luck for your new car. :cool: and keep asking those questions.

[Mr. P]

the size of the motor has something to do with it, but not all that much. The five cylinder and six both have a "multiplier" in the way of a turbocharger. The 2.5 is stroked so it gets max torque way down at 1500 rpm, which is very very usable.

As for the engine design, I can testify that the internals on a 4-cylinder Porsche 944 are so beefy, they will outlast just about any V8 short of another Porsche design. There are some that have gone 300,000 miles before needing a cylinder head replacement. The 944 basic design has been pumped to over 700-hp in racing trim, and the Volvo design is quite along the same general philosophy.

Volvo built a lot of very large trucks, before settling on their turbocharged automobile engine designs. They know what they're doing. Volvo has never built a bad car, and they've never built a bad motor, except the 90-degree V6 was prone to vibration, but still a workhorse.

I have not seen any negative press on the Volvo motors. None. Therefore, pick your preference and enjoy, and quit the worrying. I suggest you go take another test drive of both of them, as I did. I settled on the smaller motor as I liked it's history, size, lighter weight, and the 5-speed transmission. There's something to be said for either choice.

Mr. P

[coachhomer]

AWD*V70XC
Senior Member

Being that you are a "Senior Member", I was just curious if that is the way you profile every newbie to this board?

"If you don't sort your life out right now you will regret your choice and end up hating Volvo for the rest of your life."

What do you know about my life? Should I be concerned that maybe you do know me? Or are you a psychic of some sort? I didn't realize that doing a little research on a $40,000 expense was going to make me

"...seem like a jack rabbit caught in the headlights."

I am a "Senior Member" to a similar forum, so I know what it is like to feel as if you have part ownership in this informative resource. But don't forget, that is all it is... an informative resource. The forums are in place to help people, and after reading your post again, I still don't see a single bit of helpful information. The v70 idea is a great idea for someone that is completely ignorant to the automotive market and had no idea that car manufacturers made more than one model. Could there possibly be a reason as to why a guy would come in here with detailed concerns on the specified xc90 and have completely overlooked the v70? Or wait, didn't you yourself say...

"The only real difference is the fact the 90 has seven seats."

Well lookie there, we have a winner!

I am sure that you are a nice guy and that your intentions were good. I can laughingly write of a portion of your post to the fact that I don't understand Brit humor. I have never been to Europe... maybe that is the way things are done over there? But I can't help but wonder... since all you really do know about me is that I am from the states, is if you would have posted the same sarcastic way to a fellow Brit? Do you have something against Americans? I thought my questions were pretty legit.

"I would hate you to think all Volvos are problem cars..."

I don't have anything against volvo. I understand that not every car that comes off the assembly line is perfect... as is the way in life. My questions were simple and straightforward enough that I thought they would be concerns that a majority of the buying population may want answers to. I didn't ask, "Well if the pressure in one of my tires looses a pound (remember, pressure, not money) will volvo take my car back and give me a new one?"

These forums are for information that can be useful to someone at some point in their ownership in a volvo. Keep that in mind next time you decide to post...

"you will find very little wrong with the it to moan about."

Scott

[TrueBlue]

Don't let AWD rile you, he means well, it's just his style.

You should be aware that many 'members' appear not to have looked at previous posts on a topic, and that becomes irritating afrer a while.

There was a post here some month's ago where somebody was comparing the D5 with the T6; said the fuel costs were a big issue for him, even though his annual mileage was small. However, he was hapy to pay for a fully specified model - quite expensive over here. Consequently the gripe over fuel costs didn't quite stack up.

In Europe we have wider speed limits than you stateside, and wonder why you want all that power when for most the maximum speed is 60 mph. As many XC90's are sold on this side of the pond with D5 diesel engines (less power than the 2.5T petrol engines), we wonder what all the fuss is over the T6.

Anyway to deal with your questions:-

T6 engine model life
The T6 engine has been available in the S80 since at least 2000, and possibly earlier, so it's a reasonably well tried engine. The problem lies in that the power plant is too big - with the angle gear - to fit into the XC90, so an older 4 speed transmission had to be grafted onto it. This is not as smooth as the 2.5T package.

Replacement engine
A v8 has been rumoured for the XC90 since the car was announced, it would address the powertrain problems, and therefore had some credibility. AFAIK no official statement has been made by Volvo, certainly as to an availability date. If you were Volvo would you rubbish current models as long as they are selling well?

2.5T longevity
I don't think the 5 cylinder will blow up in the '90, it will just have a bit less obvious acceleration than the T6.

Summary
If you're bothered about -
fuel consumption
maintainability,
then the 2.5T scores on both points.

If you want a bit of welly, then the XC70 wins on that point, as well as having a more comfortable driving position, but then that model was not on your agenda.

Is that a better answer?

[coachhomer]

Great post Mike. Thanks for the info.

The needed power over here in the states is mainly for acceleration... ie. merging into traffic.

I drive a deisel truck, so acceleration is nonexistant. Given the option of a deisel xc90, I would take it in a heartbeat.

My worries are of the longevity of an engine that has been proven in a car, not a heavy suv. Therefore, I came here looking for educated individuals as yourself to provide more information.

Sounds to me like the best choice for proven reliability at the cost of power would be the 2.5T.

Thanks, for the help.

Scott

[William]

Scott,

Both of the current engines in the US XC90 are doing well. The each have different strong points. When searching for a vehicle, you will probably find more T6 models available.

Volvo has used the 6 cylinder engine since the 1999 Model Year in the S80 T6. The 5 cylinder engine has been used in various Volvo models since the early 90's.

Yes, a V8 is coming for the XC90. I would not expect to see it in the US until after the first of the year. At this time I have not heard anything confirming if the 5 cylinder or 6 cylinder options will be deleted for the US market.

William

[TrueBlue]

...
Given the option of a deisel xc90, I would take it in a heartbeat.....

Scott

Now we're getting somewhere; Just in case there is a figure of speech misunderstanding on my part - I assume that you'd love a diesel XC90?

If so I do have feedback for you. I have test driven the D5 XC90 and found its performance acceptible, adequate perhaps even stately; certainly OK by my standards.

We only have D5 and T6's over here, so I have to translate relative performance to the XC70 as I have driven both diesel and petrol versions. The D5 was better at acceleration (as you would expect) in the XC70, for the XC70 D5 up to about 70mph, it was not very far behind the 2.5T, after that it ran out of puff.

SO if you would be happy with a D5, then you must be happy with the petrol equivalent - based on my observations. If you want some mid-range welly to merge into fast moving traffic streams, did you try, or would you care to revisit and try the XC90 using the GT box in manual mode for that manoevre? I say this because I have only recently begun to use the manual mode to any extent, and have been pleasantly surprised. Have a look at the posts on the subject over on the XC70 forum. Makes interesting reading. Of course you'll have to make an adjustment for the heavier car.


If you do, please come back here and give us your results.

regards,

[johnnh01v70xc]

Hey Coach,

There may have been something lost in the "translation" w/ "AWD". I have seen many helpful posts from him.

On to what I have to offer:

I recently (2-3 wks ago) moved from an 01 XC70 (lease) to a new XC90 (2.5 T). Other than a couple of annoying quirks (which were never resolved by the dealer), our 70 served us (wife, 2 kids - 6,9) well for 3 yrs, 40K miles. At the end of our lease, we weighed the +/- of each vehicle for our situation. My wife loved her 70, and was inclined to get another. We had an 04 XC70 loaner (while our car was in for service) so we were able to experience the upgraded transmission, engine, steering. Definite improvements over our 01.

While the 90 had more space/seating/towing capacity (all things that an active, growing family could use) than the 70, we had developed an "anti-SUV" mentality (inefficient, wallowing, and environmentally irresponsible vehicles). But before we signed up for a new 70, I "suggested" to her that we at least try the 90 before making a decision.

I contacted the owner of our dealership, and asked if we could try a 90 for the weekend before our lease was up. He didn't have a demo which was configured the way we wanted it, but his wife drove the exact car we wanted to evaluate. She graciously cleared out her (and her kid's) stuff, and I picked it up on a Friday night for the wekend. Pretty nice.

We used it all weekend. First thing I did was wash it. I find this the best way to get to know a vehicle's exterior qualities (relative scale, quality of materials, fit, finish, etc). Also wanted to get a good feel for its appearance when "buffed". Took the kids, dog, etc. to baseball, out for ice cream, put it in the garage, took it solo on my favorite local "twisties"/highway, parked it in the driveway and stared at it from all angles.

Time will tell on it's longevity, but so far, my feeling is that FOR US, the 90 obviates the 70. There is nothing the 70 does better (other than a small gas mileage differential) than the 90, and there are a few major areas where the 90 is superior.

1. The price difference is negligable (our 90 has Premium, Versatility, Climate pkgs, DSTC is standard, also has reverse warning system, towing).

2. I find the handling and ride comfort superior to the 70. The feel is more precise and pleasant on the backroads as well as the highway. The transmission is very smooth, and seems to be well "sorted".

3. The seating capacity is superior, and safer/more comfortable for "third-row" occupants. The additional air-conditioning system in the "way back" is great when people are sitting there, as well as when the seats are down and the dogs are back there. We have friends who were uncomfortable with their kids riding in the rear-facing seats of the 70, thus precluding some car-pooling opportunities. Riding "backwards" also induced car-sickness in one of our kids. I also have been toying with the concept that the increased passenger hauling is actually more environmentally responsible as it facilitates car-pooling kids to school, practices, etc. thus, in effect doubling the MPG by keeping another vehicle off the road. A slightly larger vehicle more environmentally-friendly? If used properly, maybe.

4. The increased towing capacity provides for a more useful/versatile vehicle in the event that we need/desire to pull a horse trailer (wife's), boat, camper, etc.

5. The higher "stance" of the vehicle may provide better protection in the event of collision (especially side-impact).

6. The "Go" factor for the 2.5T is fine for our around town, family-style driving. My wife does not share my "need for speed", and I have a motorcycle for that. In my mind, "real" speed/performance and family travels don't mix. The reported mileage of many other 2.5T owners is around 20 MPG (+/-) in combined city highway driving.

Again, FOR US in our circumstances/lifestyle, we felt it was a vehicle that we could "grow-into", rather than "out of", maintaining all of the intelligent, people/environmentally friendly qualities of Volvo Design/Engineering, without sacrificing anything of consequence.

Just one opinion...

[coachhomer]

Interesting point Mike. I bought my deisel truck based on the reliability of the engine offered. The 2.5t is sufficient for my needs in power, it was the long term life expectancy that I was worried about. I like your idea of using the gt box though, I hadn't given it all that much consideration. I will definitely let you know the results though.

thanks

Scott

[coachhomer]

Awesome post John. I am with you in the respect that washing a car gives you a whole new perspective on the exterior details. I am curious what you thought after you did get a better view of the exterior?

I am sure you liked as you bought one, but what else did you notice or learn from the exterior finishes that you liked or disliked?

thanks,

Scott

[Botanique]

First, I have to say how much I enjoyed John's post about the "intimacy" you gain from washing a car. Nice touch. As a Zaino obssessive, I relate.

Coach - As a Canadian who's lived in Europe now for nine years I can speak to both the need for merging acceleration here and in the US (where I drive rentals regularly when over there on business). The road networks in the US and Canada are of good quality and exellent design, the drivers are courteous and the pace is, well, slow.

Move to Belgium where the road network was designed by anarchists, courtesy is viewed by other drivers as a trick (never give up your priority!!) and speed limits are viewed as suggested minimums - I mean, you've got to experience bumper to bumper driving at 150 kph!

The point of this is that I have to agree with TB. Your real issue should be engine longevity which as Mr. P has pointed out is without question on Volvos - this is a six figure mileage brand. You'll have all the acceleration you need out of the 2.5T. If I can be satisfied that I can fight the good fight merging from the ring road to the E411 at rush hour in a D5 - then you'll be laughing in the US behind the wheel of a 2.5T.

Don't forget, the sheer height and mass of the XC90 does things to other drivers an XC70 cannot do and given that you're up against land barges over there anyway, I would not settle for anything less. Nothing against the XC70, I was going for one until I managed to get our fleet policy changed...

[TrueBlue]

This is developing into quite an interesting thread. I'll pass over the merging question (Boatanique has covered that well).

I'm posting again partly to confess my lack of current US knowledge, and also for reference for any future european users searching for information.

Firstly, I had underestimated how (physically) big the SUVs are over there. We have plenty of GM double cab pick-ups here (? correct term), and they're quite big but manageable, 'the other day' I saw an absolutely huge Chrysler? Thing; it appeared to be about the size of two Range Rovers, certainly bigger than a Hummer. If that vehicle is the norm Stateside, then, of course a poor little XC70 is going to feel like a Mini in comparison. I can see why the XC90 is so popular.

Secondly, in the UK SUVs get a bad press because our roads are small and twisty and most SUVs (now dubbed Chelsea Tractors) are used for the School Run in urban areas, and generate a lot of congestion.

Thirdly, over here the XC90 is very expensive. I configured an XC70 and 90 with similar specifications using the gizmos that I wanted and the price difference was a paltry 2,000 USD (2.5T XC70 vs T6 XC90). So no contest there.

Over here the difference is at least 10,000 GBP or 18,000 greenbacks, again for a similar vehicle.

Perhaps now people can understand why we say XC90; on earth why??

[coachhomer]

Trueblue
The SUV's are out of control in the states. The Ford Excursion is the biggest and is is about the size of a schoolbus (well maybe not that big).

The xc90 will cost you 18,000 dollars more than the 70?

that is amazing.

2 main reasons on our part for the 90 are taller stance, and 7 seats.

Scott

[AWD*V70XC]

I am having some issues with the engines that volvo offers. Are my concerns valid? I am ready to buy the volvo for all of the other reasons that make this a great car, but the engine is worrying me.
scott

Scott, first of all, to reply to my first post after yours I must point out a few things that may have been misinturpreted. Not knowing your background (which you were right on) your last line worried me that you might be buying a XC90 for the wrong reasons. You think it looks OK but the engine is worrying you, there are two other members posts on this site where they have bought a Cross Country, being their first Volvo as well and found out to their misfortune that they had ended up with a lemon. This experience put both members off future purchases of any Volvo as they did not want the hassle of getting stuck with another lemon that would eat into their pockets. All I wanted to do was to make sure that any doubt you had in your mind about 'what you purceived' your new Volvo to be, would be laid to rest when you got it and not the fact that you could not wait to get rid of it.

Secondly, the diesel used in the US and Canada is too dirty for European engines and I have pointed this out before, especially for members on the OSD programs. I guess that Volvo will introduce a diesel engine from the stable of other car makers that it is involved with Stateside when the demand grows, but with gas prices the way they are in your neck of the woods vs. Europe I think diesel engines are a long way off. John's account was a very fair way of how to adjust to a different car without buying it and this is what I had suggested to you as well.

Thirdly, your comment/remark about me being English/Brit etc was a little below the belt, I am neither but merely in the UK on assignment to the aviation industry in London. I also have nothing against Americans or anyone else for that matter. Being in the position I am in, I would however describe myself as a square peg in a round hole and therefore can view things from many different angles (which I do try to do), and give something of a debate.

Scott, hope you make the right choice in time and you have many happy miles. :)

[coachhomer]

AWD,

I just thought your post to a newbie was a bit harsh and speculative. No worries though, heard and been called worse by the misses.

As to why you are offended by the Brit/English comment, I do not know. Nothing I said was derogatory towards Europeans. Like I said, I have never been there and wouldn't presume to know how things are done over there.

As a future volvo owner and a hopefully a "frequenter" to this board, I felt that I had to address you post and let that be that.

I appreciate you spin on things and will look forward to reading your further posts

Scott

[johnnh01v70xc]

Hey Scott,

As you surmised, my impressions of the XC90 exterior (as well as interior)were favorable. It is the Scandanavian style of understated elegance, following function, which sells me. The vehicle is attractive yet is constructed to withstand the elements over the long-haul. When you put your hands all over it (washing/drying), open and close all doors you feel one solid piece of equipment. I live in rural New Hampshire and we get a lot of sand/salt nasty weather. The beautiful metallic paint (we got Ruby Red) coupled with the strategic placement of plastic cladding looks great now and probably will in 10 years. There is nothing about the exterior that I didn't like. I would recommend the stock wheels on the 2.5T (Neptune) over the Atlantis (stock on T6). As you may/may not know, Volvo (as other European cars) wheels get dirty (from brake dust) quickly, so ease of cleaning is important. The Atlantis wheels are a little fancier, but I would imagine take longer to clean. The Neptunes cleaned-up very quickly.

One thing that hit me right away (compared to the 70) was how tall it was. I used to be able to reach across the roof of the 70, can't do that with the 90. This makes putting bicycles on roof more of a challenge, so I will be purchasing the hitch-mounted bicycle carrier.

One fit/finish complaint I have (as have other owners) is the gear shift handle. When you squeeze the button to move the selector back, there is a rough edge that you feel. It's no big deal, it just feels out-of-place given the quality of the rest of the vehicle. I am surprised that this "touch-point" was overlooked. There is an upgraded leather shift handle available, but I am not sure of the cost to get it installed/added pre/post-purchase.

Again, these are basically first impressions as we only have 800 miles on the car: but, so far I would rate it an "A". Given Volvo's reputation for longevity/durability, I would bet that I could keep this car as long as I wanted to, without replacing major systems.

Unfortunately (?) I really don't have any negative items to warn you about (other than those identified), so it is pretty much a one-sided response. If you have any other specific questions, I would be glad to help where I can.

The best thing we did was to get the car home before we bought it. Even if you can't get one for the whole weekend, at least try for overnight. It makes all the difference compared to around-the-block with a salesperson yapping in your ear.

John

[TrueBlue]

Trueblue
The SUV's are out of control in the states. The Ford Excursion is the biggest and is is about the size of a schoolbus (well maybe not that big).

The xc90 will cost you 18,000 dollars more than the 70?

that is amazing.

2 main reasons on our part for the 90 are taller stance, and 7 seats.

Scott


Thanks for your feedback; it all helps the understanding.
The UK price differences is partly to a whopping sales tax (17.5%) and the XC90 is pitched against luxury off-roaders, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and the Range Rover, this latter is more than 50,000 GBP or 90,000 USD....

The XC70 never took off here and so was priced more attractively, until the '90 was announced, now the price is moving up.

I'm really making this post because,
Quote: "Like I said, I have never been there and wouldn't presume to know how things are done over there.".
Have you heard about the OSD (Over Seas Delivery) program? Many folks Stateside rave about it - see the OSD forum here on this site
Some advantages are -

you get a good discount on the car,
a free flight,
a chance to add other extras not easily available locally,
get to drive around Europe (your choice of locations and duration),
and have your car delivered home when you're finished.

See here for volvo program details (http://flyvolvo.com/msg10.htm)


Seems like a chance of a lifetime at little cost. There are even some pictures do have a look - even if it's not for you.
Postscript: some of the pictures - and there have been a lot - have got lost in the conversion from the old board (Drat), but do look at posts by Bigtomhammer

BTW, please would you go to your "User CP", top left in the banner heading and put something useful in "location", City, State, would be great. It helps to get a handle on what your issues might be. I couldn't work out where the sweet tea states are.

Thanks,

[coachhomer]

Trueblue,
The osd program would be awesome, and I would look to do that on a future vehicle purchase if it is still available. We have a 2 year old girl and a 3 week old boy now. Traveling over seas would be pretty rough on us right now.

Sorry about the location, hopefully I got that fixed.

Just wanted to thank everone for their info. I am feeling pretty confident now on the 2.5T.

I will let everone know how the buying process goes.

thanks again,

Scott