Leaking after cam seal job - VVT gear quite loose.

[Rabid Koala]

My 2006, with 145,000 miles, had recently received a new complete PCV system. It leaked oil and failed the glove test. I bought the genuine Volvo kit at IPD and did the install a few weeks back. I had *thought* the oil leak had disappeared until about two weeks later, when I saw a puddle under the car when leaving for work. Reading the threads here and watching some videos convinced me that it was worth it to buy the "good" cam locking tool and do the job. That is what I did today. This required refamiliarizing myself with the timing belt R&R, since it had been a couple of years and about 20K since I did all that. While in there I replaced everything that moved, so all of that is still good. The seals came from FCP, according to their site both exhaust and intake should be Elring #9458309, that is what I installed.

All in all it wasn't too bad a job, just time consuming the first time around. I could do it again a lot quicker. Unfortunately, it looks like I might have to. :mad:

Upon getting past the initial euphoria of the car starting and running with no codes, and after a short ride, I put it up on ramps and noticed a whole bunch of oil. After getting past, sort of, the feeling of annoyance after doing all that work and having &%$#@ oil in the driveway again, I came in and started reading through the threads. Maybe there is something I am not grasping here.

One other thought, the exhaust VVT gear had a ton on in and out play in it with the timing belt off. Is this normal? It was much more than the intake. Could this possibly be the issue? I did replace both o-rings on each, sourced from that seller on ebay.

Ideas would be greatly appreciated! [cool2]

[Astro14]

You've got VVT on both intake and exhaust cams, so it makes sense that the seals are the same.

But the VVT units should feel the same, too. A bit of play in the clockwise/Counter clockwise direction, and nearly zero in/out play...if you had a lot of play, I wonder if the bolt was on tight enough. The Torx cover bolt is reasonably tight, like 35 NM (don't hold me to this, I'm going off memory) but the bolt that holds it onto the cam is really tight, like 100NM. That's why the cam locking tool is so important...

I don't think that what you describe is normal...

[Rabid Koala]

I read in one of the old threads here that someone had an issue with different valve seals, perhaps that was on a single VVT engine. I may call FCP just to make sure.

In thinking this thing through, I haven't yet seen any evidence of oil slinging off of the pulley, rather it is a leak at the bottom where the seal would be. I would expect that a leaking VVT would be likely to sling oil, but I could be very wrong. My VVT is well torqued down, as is the plug bolt. I was quite surprised to see that there was no key or spline holding it in the right place. The in/out play is better than 1/8 inch.

This is new territory to me, my last Volvo was a 95 960 that had no VVT. I'm stumped. I think before I drop the hammer on a new one I might check the local European wrecking yards.

I'm glad I bought the CTA tool, it looks like I will be going in there again.

[Xfingers]

Rabid Koala, maybe you posted details in another thread, but just to establish some baseline facts...

1. You did the PCV replacement BECAUSE your car was leaking oil (and failed glove test)?
Based on my exp., a clogged PCV can cause an oil leak (blown seal), but merely replacing the PCV will NOT stop this oil leak. You must also replace the blown seal.

2. You installed new cam seals, went for a test ride, and noticed oil dripping.
Again, my exp. was after replacing leaking seal, I still had a small drip from the undercarriage leaving a mark on the driveway. I checked the oil level on the dipstick and it was at FULL so I attributed this leak to residual oil from the original blown seal. (I lost 4 qts. in the space of 5 min. while driving home and the bottom of the car on pass side was covered with oil.) I continued to check the oil level for the next few weeks and drove around with a 5-qt. jug of oil in the back just in case. No loss and the oil drip disappeared.

How bad is your leak? Is the oil level on dipstick going down? I'm thinking this would be the true sign that you're losing oil. Also, if a cam seal is leaking it can be tricky to see. It can leak down the engine block BEHIND the plastic TB housing so when you take the TB cover off everything looks dry inside.

Don't have much info on the VVT hub. My 02 only has VVT on exhaust cam. I replaced the intake cam seal only. I do remember reading a thread where someone, after exhausting all other possibilities, finally replaced the VVT hub and afterwards no more oil leaking. Have no idea if this is your situation.

[Rabid Koala]

Thank you, yes I did replace the PCV due to an oil leak and failed glove test. Post replacement it has plenty of vacuum in the crankcase. It is a pretty severe leak. I had the car up on jack stands with the skid pan off, I washed the oil off of the engine, crossmember, etc. After doing the cam seals and driving less than a mile the oil was back. It was dry on the cover, so I can see it was running down the block from below. I'm leaning toward the VVT for sure, but want more information before I make the commitment to buy one.

[Rabid Koala]

This morning I tore it back down to try to figure out the source of the problem. I think I did find the source. I'll be ordering a new VVT pulley for the exhaust cam.

In an earlier post I had mentioned excessive in and out play in the exhaust pulley. With turning force there was even more play. There is way less play in the intake VVT pulley. What I also failed to realize is that the cam oil seal does not seal against the cam, rather it seals around the lip of the pulley where it slides over the cam. This means the o-ring inside the pulley will leak behind the seal if it leaks. What I think was happening with mine was that I had pushed the oil seal a bit too far in toward the cam, and coupled with the play in the pulley (as evidenced by the seal line on the pulley in the photos below) was enough to keep the seal from engaging on the pulley itself. As best I could measure there is about 3mm of play in the pulley, see the photos above showing the inner sleeve extended and retracted.

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It sure appears to me that they had originally intended for the seal to be not fully set in its bore. I was aware of this but set it too deep anyway, and the play in the pulley made it as there was no seal at all! As you can see from the photo of the oil seal, the thing was an oily mess, and that was from less than half a mile of driving and maybe 10 minutes of idling.

On the positive side, a new VVT pulley is way cheaper than giving up and sending it off to a repair shop on a tow truck, so I am more than willing to take the gamble and give it a try. I think this was coincidental to the PCV failing and forcing oil out of a very marginal seal at best.

We shall see........

[vtl]

Hard to see, but did you push the seal too far? It also looks a bit bent. Maybe just shadows though...

This is how my 12 y.o. seal looked like before I pulled it out. It didn't leak, but I had new original seals in hands. Yes, my VVT hub is starting to show wear signs and has some oil traces on the back.

https://a.d-cd.net/4a10441s-960.jpg

[Rabid Koala]

Yes, I did go too far in with the seal. I ordered a couple of extras with the new VVT pulley and will set them a lot more carefully. I'm guessing that absent the play in the pulley, all would have been OK, two items out of spec working, or not working, together caused the problem.

I also ordered a VIDA DICE which I have been putting off.

[Rabid Koala]

UPDATE-Parts from FCP arrived today, I got right to work. I bought two new seals just in case, I changed both intake and exhaust and didn't set them as deep as before. The new exhaust VVT pulley was installed and I got it all put together. I left the skid pan off, a 14 mile test drive followed. No apparent oil leaks, when I got home I put cardboard underneath to catch anything still working its way off the engine or subframe. I'm cautiously optimistic. I also got the VVT gaskets, I'll tackle that one a little later.

[Astro14]

Hey, that's great!

Did you notice the play in the new VVT? How did it compare with the old VVT?

[Rabid Koala]

Yes, there was just a bit of play in the new one, perhaps 1 mm. The old one had about 3mm. There was a much smaller amount of play in the intake pulley. With the oil seal seated in the proper position there is room for quite a bit more wear in that one before it becomes a problem.

It was quite a learning experience, and I am much less afraid of dealing with camshaft seals or the crankcase ventilation system if I need to in the future.

This morning I checked the cardboard that I put under the area last night, no oil drops! [thumbup]