Weird Flashing arrows

[RJFMBACPA]

https://vimeo.com/170952994I am having an issue with my alternator and or voltage regulator. They are on order and plan to replace them this weekend. I assume this issue is related but......

As you can see from the attached video when I use the right turn signal I get a flashing double green arrow in the lower right corner of the dash, but it does not happen when using the left turn signal. You can see the amber triangle in the center of the dash and that is on because of the low battery voltage warning. I have owned this car for 15 years and I have never seen that light, I don't think it even lights up before the car starts.

The only code I am getting is P1237 and I was getting that prior to this issue. I do not have a CEL but I do have the low battery voltage message that usually happens about 3 minutes after I start driving.

Any ideas what those flashing arrows mean?

[guymon]

Your video is marked as private so we can't see it. Also you need to fix the low voltage (Battery, Alternator?) as these cars don't like that and will do weird things.

[hoonk]

low battery voltage warning

Any ideas what those flashing arrows mean?



flashing arrows could be just a confused by low voltage DIM, what is the actual voltage in the system when you get the low voltage message?

[RJFMBACPA]

Sorry, updated to public.

[RJFMBACPA]

At the battery while at idle I get 13.14 volts. Starts at 14.1 but drops steadily to 13.14

[01_Nautic_V70]

Adding to the consensus. Until the low voltage issues are corrected, disregard odd indications. Low voltage does odd things in these cars.

[hoonk]

low battery voltage message that usually happens about 3 minutes after I start driving.



To confirm you have 13.14 volts w no load (ac, lights, etc off) and the low voltage message is on about 3 minutes after you start driving?

Have seen brushes (in the voltage regulator) get worn to the point where good contact is made with a cold alternator, but not so much after the alternator gets hot. Possible with 157k miles and 15 years

[Astro14]

There are loads of alternatives for alternators, ranging from $700 for "Genuine Volvo" to rebuilt units for $200. The voltage regulator is part of the alternator.

In my experience, the best way to proceed is to take yours out, bring it to a local rebuilder, and have it done there. For $105 per rebuild, my local guy has done the alternator on each Volvo and the 4 Runner. You know the part fits, you know it's the proper amperage and connection. It's also half the cost of any other alternative.

If that's not an option in your area, FCP has a good price on a rebuilt Bosch: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/volvo-alternator-s60-s80-v70-al0756x-120a

Get it done and I suspect all your codes and display weirdness will be solved.

[01_Nautic_V70]

To confirm you have 13.14 volts w no load (ac, lights, etc off) and the low voltage message is on about 3 minutes after you start driving?

Have seen brushes (in the voltage regulator) get worn to the point where good contact is made with a cold alternator, but not so much after the alternator gets hot. Possible with 157k miles and 15 years

If that's the case, a rebuild kit with new regulator/brushes would fix it for about $50.

[RJFMBACPA]

Yes to confirm, no load except the driver door being open. I actually have the exact part that Astro14 linked to already on order. It will go in this weekend. Does anyone know what the flashing arrows indicate? I am working under the assumption that they will go away when alternator is replaced, but I am still curious what they are for.

[The Landshark]

The flashing lights in the lower right are for trailer indicators, or they are on mine anyway, when the trailer is hooked up they flash if the trailer indicators are working. Could be worth checking your trailer socket wiring if you have one fitted

[Willy]

The flashing lights in the lower right are for trailer indicators,
That's right, mentioned in the owners manual under "Indicator and warning symbols" :Trailer turn signal indicator
Is it possible that a (small) continuous current draw in the right trailer turn signal circuit, revealed by the
small arrows, is causing the problem?
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Well I changed the alternator and the battery and I am still getting the low battery voltage message. I am not real happy. What else can cause me to be getting this LOW BATTERY VOLTAGE message?

[Astro14]

Measure your battery voltage at rest and measure the voltage across the terminals with the engine running.

You've got new parts, but the warning suggests that one of them is failed/bad.

[RJFMBACPA]

After sitting for 13-14 hours the battery reads 12.46 volts. I think the alternator and regulator (replaced as one unit) are ok because I was getting 14.1 volts at the battery with the engine running just after swapping it out yesterday. But I still had the low voltage reading so I put in a new battery, still same message. I am thinking parasitic drain or something more sinister. I am headed out for a few hours(in another vehicle) but I will put the charger on it when I get back and get it to 12.6 volts or higher and see how long it can hold that. If it drops much I would think parasitic drain? How steady should a brand new battery hold a full charge?

[Astro14]

I'm no battery expert, but brand new should hold a charge very well. Thing is, I've seen brand new batteries delivered with less than a full charge. So, I tend to measure/test them, and either drive the car for a couple hours, or charge them in situ, if needed.

The battery in my S600, for example, is a $275 AGM from he dealer and needed a bit of charge when I bought it. To charge up a battery that's drained can take several hours of driving.

Here's a good article:

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html

[Willy]

I don't think that 12.46V should raise a low voltage alarm.
I suppose the engine starts without problems at that voltage, provided that enough current is available,
which should certainly be the case with a new battery.
To find out the current draw, connect an amp-meter in series with the negative connector at the battery.
Try to do this while all lighting is off.
Is the car equiped with a tow hitch?
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

I don't think that 12.46V should raise a low voltage alarm.
I suppose the engine starts without problems at that voltage, provided that enough current is available,
which should certainly be the case with a new battery.
To find out the current draw, connect an amp-meter in series with the negative connector at the battery.
Try to do this while all lighting is off.
Is the car equiped with a tow hitch?
Willy

No tow hitch unless it is a factory option to have the wiring installed at the factory. I bought this new 15 years ago. No issue starting. It sat all day yesterday and had 12.4 volts this morning. Started right up and reads 14.1 at the battery with the only draw being the dome light for the rear hatch. After idling for about 10-15minutes the battery charge was up to 12.76. I had a lot of accessories on for part of the time the engine was idling (AC, radio headlights fog lights, rear fog lights rear dome light) and the voltage seemed to jump around for 13.5 to 13.9, it didn't seem to stay steady. THe low battery voltage message stayed on the whole time, but the battery idiot light never came on and has never come on. I have a feeling that there is a small parasitic draw and something making the computer think the voltage is low when it isn't. Although the fact that it jumps around when running accessories seems odd to me.

I have also had random hazard flashers going off that I think is related to the alarm siren being shot (that has been shot for several years) any chance this is the source of the parasitic draw?

Continued thoughts/advice appreciated.

[RJFMBACPA]

It sat all day yesterday and had 12.4 volts this morning. Started right up and reads 14.1 at the battery with the only draw being the dome light for the rear hatch. After idling for about 10-15minutes the battery charge was up to 12.76. I had a lot of accessories on for part of the time the engine was idling (AC, radio headlights fog lights, rear fog lights rear dome light) and the voltage seemed to jump around for 13.5 to 13.9, it didn't seem to stay steady. THe low battery voltage message stayed on the whole time, but the battery idiot light never came on and has never come on. I have a feeling that there is a small parasitic draw and something making the computer think the voltage is low when it isn't. Although the fact that it jumps around when running accessories seems odd to me.

I have also had random hazard flashers going off that I think is related to the alarm siren being shot (that has been shot for several years) any chance this is the source of the parasitic draw?

Continued thoughts/advice appreciated.

[JRL]

Check your CABLES

[RJFMBACPA]

Check your CABLES

I did check them around the battery and the positive under the hood as well as the B+ at the alternator. No corrosion, but the positive under the hood is a little dirty, but just dirty no corrosion. I guess I can clean it with battery terminal cleaner just for giggles, but ......

I have a multimeter with continuity and resistance, but the leads are not long. What module is reading the voltage and sending the indication that there is not enough?

[Willy]

The siren module (housed beind the right front wheel well lining) can go bad in different ways.
The internal batteries can leak and corrode the internals, or water can get in the housing.
I suppose that both ways could result in a current draw. The CAN-bus can also keep trying to
access the siren module, even when the car is shut-down. This will also consume some current.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to disconnect the siren module and pack the connector.
Your car doesn't have a tow hitch, but the connector for the hitch electrics is probably present.
It can be found under the cargo area floor, near the spare wheel in the direction of the bumper.
It may be worth checking. Given the nature of the problems it may also be a good idea to
examine ground connections.
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

What do you mean by pack the connector? If I completely disconnect the siren will that make an open circuit that is an issue? I haven't had the siren for a couple years and 15 year old Volvo's are not a thief's top priority so if I can just disconnect I can certainly live with that. What a I looking for in the cargo area? An open connector? Thanks again for letting me pick your Volvo brain.

[Willy]

I must have caused confusion using the word connector, sorry.
Probably happens bacause English is not my native language :o
I meant that if you disconnect the siren module, it is a good idea to seal the plug,
it carries power but also the CAN-bus. Since water is sometimes found in the siren
module, it follows that it can be wet in there and therefore sealing the plug is a
good measure to prevent further problems.
The siren module can be disconnected, without causing other problems. It doesn't
mean the the alarm function is no longer active, if the alarm trips, the car's horn
will sound instead of the siren.
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Thank you Willie. I will try to disconnect the siren this weekend and see what if anything happens. I don't mind replacing if it solves the issue, I just hate throwing parts at the car that doesn't solve the problem. I will report back after unplugging siren. Any other thoughts/comments are welcome in the meantime.

[Astro14]

Willie makes a good point: if you unplug connectors, clean and seal them so they don't get contaminated and cause a short.

Check your trailer hitch plug and the siren module...

And check the grounds on the engine.

[BillAileo]

If you end up needing to remove the siren module be prepared for extra work taking out the fasteners. They are a tamper proof design.

[Willy]

Indeed, the bolt can't be removed with a normal tool.
If I remember well, I filed 2 parrallel sides at it so I could get a grip. Once it is loose it will come off easily.
On the other hand, if you won't replace the module, perhaps you can just as well let it be.
And yes, check the trailer hitch plug first, just imagine that there is water in the spare wheel well.
You could have seen that when you replaced the battery, but you never know. It only takes a few minutes,
removing or even disconnecting the siren module will take significantly longer :rolleyes:
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

I found the trailer hitch plug, or what I assume is the trailer hitch plug. Nothing evident, no water, no staining, no corrosion. As far as the bolt, if I do need to take out the siren I was planning on using a tool that removes bolts and screws with stripped heads. Assuming I can get a decent angle on it with my drill I think it will be easier than using a dremel. Especially since I don't own a dremel.

As far as checking the grounds under the hood, I see 3 close to the under hood fuse box that are good, tight, fairly clean, no sign of corrosion. Any others?

[Willy]

There must be more ground connections, but the ones you found are the straightforward.
So the trailer hitch plug is ok.
I found this video about replacing the siren module: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SH_eDLJJ-c
It mentions removing the fuse of the siren. I can't remember if that was discussed, but removing the
fuse is the perfect way to find out if the siren module is the cause of a current draw.
When drilling the rivets, you should take care that the heads don't rotate with the drill, this can cause
damage to the liner. And should you replace the module, you could replace the anti tamper bolt with
a normal one (as I did).
Willy

[Willy]

I have a multimeter with continuity and resistance, but the leads are not long. What module is reading the voltage and sending the indication that there is not enough?
I have no idea where the low voltage indication comes from.
Probably your multimeter can also measure DC current.
If so, trying to find a parasitic current draw, you may consider connecting the meter set for DC current
in series with the negative cable and the negative connector on the battery, read the current (set the
meter to the highest range if not autorange) and remove fuses to find out when the reading drops.
The easiest way to do this is one by one, replacing each fuse after removal to avoid confusion.
You may need help of an assistent or you may need to use long wires. almost any braided flexible wires
will do, insulate where necessary. The extra length of the wires will not compromise the current reading.
But the first interesting thing to know would be how high the current draw really is.
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

OK, I put the multimeter in series with the negative battery terminal and it measures 12.6volts. I am confused, as I expected zero or whatever the parasitic draw (if there is any). I had one lead on the negative terminal and one on the negative cable with the cable off the battery. Am I missing something? I have the green line dm-20 multimeter and tried what I believe are the amp settings and got no reading at all. I also ran around all day yesterday with fuse 38 for the alarm siren removed and had low voltage message non stop. I am fairly convinced that this is a bogus low voltage message but......

[hoonk]

OK, I put the multimeter in series with the negative battery terminal and it measures 12.6volts. I had one lead on the negative terminal and one on the negative cable with the cable off the battery.

Amps are measured in series, voltage is measured in parallel - i'm not sure what you get when you try to measure voltage in series. The best way to measure amps is with an inductive ammeter - using a typical ammeter in series with leads ends up blowing the fuse inside the ammeter, they are usually limited to 10 Amps :)


Have you had any problem with the battery not staying charged?

If the low voltage message is false, someone like the help department @ Xemodex might could give insight on what control unit is causing that message

[Willy]

Current is indeed measured in series, or "inline", the meter must be "between" the negative post of the
battery and the negative cable connector. Since the battery holds its nominal voltage,the parasitic current
you are searching will be rather small, the fuse of the meter won't blow.
This video explains it pretty well, but I think it is safer to remove the negative side of the battery instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFCT-YZbU5o
As you suspect, the low voltage message could be low. This can be assessed better once the current draw
of the car in shut-down condition is known (I measured it once, but it will take a deep search to find the figure).
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Amps are measured in series, voltage is measured in parallel - i'm not sure what you get when you try to measure voltage in series. The best way to measure amps is with an inductive ammeter - using a typical ammeter in series with leads ends up blowing the fuse inside the ammeter, they are usually limited to 10 Amps :)


Have you had any problem with the battery not staying charged?

If the low voltage message is false, someone like the help department @ Xemodex might could give insight on what control unit is causing that message

Great idea to call Xemodex, I used their ETM and their help desk guy was a huge help. I will call them tomorrow. THe battery voltage does drop a little overnight but never enough to cause issues starting, but the damn low battery voltage message wont go away.

[Willy]

Indeed, Xemodex, good idea!
Perhaps the flashing small indicators and the low voltage message come from a malfuncioning
DIM, although I haven't read anything like that before.
Willy

[hoonk]

the parasitic current you are searching will be rather small


Yes, but when you disconnect the battery then reconnect it (with or without a functioning ammeter in series) there is a spike in current usage as all the control units are powered up, if a door (or trunk) is open, or key in ignition - you will have almost a 10 amp current draw (on an inductive ammeter). Close all the latches, take key out - after a couple of minutes the current usage settles down to usually less than 100 mA.

[Willy]

I understand what you write concerning the spike in current draw.
On the other hand, fuses blow not only because of the value of the current,
the duration is also important. A fuse may survive an excess current if it not
to excessive and of very short duration.
But to avoid any risk, I advised to see to it that all current draw is avoided, this
will also be the only situation in which the reading will be relevant in this case.
Another method, if only an inline meter is available, is to use a simple wire to
reconnect the battery with the connector, then connect the A-meter parallel
over the wire and then cut the wire between the probes of the meter.
By the time the wire is cut, the current will have settled to the average value.
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Well, I just disconnected the siren module and nothing has changed except I didn't get the alarm system service required message. After a minute or two (I will time it next time) I get the low battery voltage warning message. I called Xemodex Friday but they did not return my call. I will try again tomorrow and report back.

[RJFMBACPA]

Well I finally spoke to Xemodex, they were very helpful but difficult to get ahold of tech support. Anyway, tech support suggested that the CEM might be on the fritz. He advised the do an overnight reset by connecting the positive and negative battery cables together and leaving overnight. I was all set to do that, but on the day I got that advice I took a longer drive than normal (may have had the car running for over an hour straight) and I noticed the low battery voltage message was gone. I was driving in a rain storm that would have made Noah proud. Not sure how long it was out before I noticed since my eyes were glued to the road. I had just enough time to get excited and then it came back on. After getting to my destination and the car sitting for 1.5 hours I headed home. It took longer for the message to come back on (had been coming on at the 2 minute mark). Now several days later it doesn't come on any longer. I don't want to be Mr. Negative, but issues don't just "fix themselves."

I am thinking that the car maybe needed a really long run to either get the new alternator broken in or the battery charged up (even though at idle I was getting 14.1-14.15 volts at the battery and after sitting overnight the battery was 12.6-12.7 volts)?

Does that make sense? I know it is electrical, which is always a tough diagnosis but......

Thanks as always.

[Willy]

I don't think that, if the charging system and the battery are ok, a very long drive is needed to fully
charge the battery. Alternators are efficient enough to keep the battery charged without long rides.
A slipping accessory belt can cause the alternator to deliver less current than it should, but
the voltages you measured (previously and now) are ok and should not raise an alarm.
It is strange that the message is now gone and that it doesn't seem to come back.
That is good and bothering at the same time.
As you write, issues don't tend to cure themselves, but you never know. I'll keep my fingers crossed :-)
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Well, it was too good to be true. After 2 days of no message, the low battery voltage message has returned. I will try the idea provided by Xemodex. Anyone else have any ideas? The CEM is $600 from Xemodex, and I am not sure that is the issue. Thanks

[Willy]

Since everything seems to be working as it should be, perhaps you can leave it as it is.
If other issues arise, they might support the CEM failure idea or point to something else.
This could allow you to make a better judgement of the cause of the problems.
Willy

[Xfingers]

Since everything seems to be working as it should be, perhaps you can leave it as it is.


Agree with Willy. If you're getting good voltage readings (14.1+ at idle, 12.6 at rest) I would put more trust in this data than the batt low warning message. If you're getting a 12.6v reading on your battery, then how the heck can it be low? Before I replaced my old batt last year, I was getting 11.4v readings but NEVER got a Battery Low warning message on my display (go figure). Did the Xemodox guy think that your warning message is an early indication of the DIM starting to go? Or maybe since my battery tested 11.4v and I didn't get a message, is there a problem with my DIM? Who knows...my XC is almost 15 yrs. old, I want to keep it in good running order but it doesn't have to work perfectly.

Here's a "real" electrical problem. My DD power window works when key is in position 1 but cuts out when engine is running. I wanna take the DDM module out and inspect but those plastic electrical connectors are a bugger to get off. Afraid I'll snap, break something and then I'll be in a deeper hole. Oh well, car is 15 years old...doesn't have to work perfectly. That's my attitude :)

[RJFMBACPA]

Xfingers- The Xemodex rep said that he did not think it was the DIM as that is just displaying the message. He believed the message originates in the CEM. He sounded 85% confident and told me that he would call me back if he found out that the message originated somewhere other than the CEM. I do have the clock that runs fast, but no other DIM issues that I am aware of.

For the 73rd time I checked the voltage. At rest after sitting all night with the only active drain being the rear hatch dome light the reading was 12.58 and steady. I started the car and with the daytime running lights and rear dome it was 14.2 steady. I added the radio, AC, front and rear foglights and it jumped around from 14.07 to 14.11.

I am going to connect the battery cables together overnight as suggested on Sunday night. Too much driving to do between now and then. I will then determine if there is a cooling fan for the CEM for this car (anyone know if there is in a 2001). I am in South Florida and it is Summer non stop here, I suppose the CEM could be acting up when overheating? I will probably poke around with a rigged up fan before dropping $600 with xemodex (although I am not opposed to that if I gain confidence that will resolve the problem).

Thanks!

[Willy]

I don't know if you sometimes visit a Volvo dealer.
If so, you could think about asking him to remove and reseat the CEM.
If it is the CEM that senses the battery voltage and raises the alarm, it
is not impossible that a less that perfect contact in the connector can
cause the problem. In my proffesional capacity, numurous issues were
solved by simply reseating a board, module or cable.
Perhaps it is worth a try.
Willy

[Willy]

I came across this tehnical journal:
Item:RTJ15708-2007-03-27 (Cable harness for trailers drains battery)
Found it here (Select the XC70 - MY2004 - Technical Journal - don't select "type" to see it listed third place) shttps://www.volvotechinfo.com)/index.cfm?event=item.view&itemClass=service,parts&itemType=Technical%20Journal&itemSubType=#
I don't know the content, you have to buy these bulletins.
I links the flashing arrows and and the battery.
Willy

[RJFMBACPA]

Unfortunately I have to revive this thread. All was well, or well enough for a 15+ year old car. I was never able to resolve the low battery voltage warning light and I have just been living with it. I suspect it is the CEM, but decided I liked $600 more than I hated the warning message. In the past few weeks I started having issues with the "alarm" tripping. I removed the siren module a long time ago (date mentioned in this thread). I am not too concerned with the car being stolen. Lately the alarm has been getting triggered, flashers flashing and I am getting several visits a week from concerned neighbors. I also have a tailgate open message. I am assuming that the alarm thinks that he rear hatch is open and that eventually triggers the alarm. Because I have a dead rear wiper (also in a previous post) and now the tailgate issue I thought I may have a bad wire harness. Yesterday I back probed every wire and didn't find a single issue.

I assume there is some type of micro switch in the door handle? As long as I have remote door unlock for all the doors (and hatch) I couldn't care less about the alarm. So I am looking at 2 possible solutions.

1- Fix what is causing the alarm to think that the hatch is open

2- Completely disable the alarm so that no matter what the cars status, the alarm never flashes.

I have checked all fuses and relay in the REM, I assume the REM could be bad? While I had all the panels off yesterday I also removed the wiper motor. Even though I checked the harness wires, I would like to bench test before ordering a replacement. Anyone know which of the three leads I can apply 12 volts to? I assume one is the constant 12, one is intermittent 12 and the other is ground? One white, one grey or black (don't recall) and one yellow.

I know there is a lot going on in this post, so thank you for your time and attention.

[Xfingers]

A long shot, but maybe the rug in the cargo area has slid forward enough to interfere with the closure of the hatch. The hatch will still close but not completely enough so the alarm system thinks the hatch is still open. This would be the EASY solution...

[RJFMBACPA]

No luck on the cargo mat, it is in the garage, so I know that isn't the issue [thumbup]. Yesterday I bench tested the wiper motor and it works, so that is two issues (in the rear) related to the harness or REM or maybe even the CEM. I also have the low battery voltage message that may be related to the CEM (new alternator and regulator did not solve that message but I have been running fine for over 6 months with the message, confident the message is erroneous). I think I ruled out the rear harness, but I am not 100% certain. All fuses and relays (square ones) are ok in the REM.

To reiterate, my car seems to think that my rear hatch is not closed (causing alarm to trip), my rear wiper is not working and low battery voltage message on dash.

I don't have a Volvo indy very close, but there is one 2 towns over. I turned 165kmiles today and it is a 2001. I have been saying this for years, not sure how much longer she will last. If I were to buy a VIDA DICE will that help me diagnose? Could all issues be related to the CEM? If I recall correctly the wiper was first, followed by the low voltage and most recently the hatch (although I have gotten random tailgate open messages for the entire 15+ years I have had the car).

Thoughts are appreciated. Helpful thoughts are greatly appreciated!