PDA

View Full Version : Interesting possible solution for transmission shift problems when ATF becomes hot



howardc64
01-29-2014, 06:38 PM
I've had little random infrequent transmission shift issues (2001 121k miles). Have done all the typical repair items regarding this tranny (B4 servo, torque mount, flush, TCM software, adaptation, even rebuilt the linear solenoids and changed a couple of valves with the Transgo kit).

I found this thread and decided it was simple enough to give it a try

http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?25253-01-v70-xc-trans-questions&p=167803#post167803

While I didn't have any severe pronounced problems before, the newly installed transmission cooler seems to reduce majority of the shift issues when ATF is hot. Most noticeable is my RPM would show a little up swing bump when coming to a stop at times which coincides with a likely 2-1 downshift. This is pretty much gone now and I recall this how a good AW55-50 down shifts coming to a stop.

Anyhow, curious if we can gather more statistics on this remedy for transmission that shifts poorly when hot but perfectly fine when cold.

The installation itself was pretty easy. Had to pull off the bumper, radiator fan, intercooler/ETM pipe (just to make plenty of room and I knew how to do this step quickly, probably unnecessary) The Hayden transmission cooler installed easily and came with just enough hose. A couple of 3/8 brass garden hose fittings connected all the rubber hoses. I did have to cut a little slot under the bumper to route the aux cooler hoses into the engine bay. Total part cost is like $35 ($30 for cooler, $5 of connectors/extra clamps) The cooler installs in front of the existing radiator so it gets the best cooling opportunity from the incoming cooler air.

Many claim external coolers will drop the temperature by about 20-30F. I believe the built-in ATF cooler runs close to somewhere just under 90C when hot from my previous VIDA/DiCE observations. Post installation runs shows around 65C when hot. Both of these were taking with outside temperature of about 40F. Pretty significant drop. In fact, the VIDA/DiCE adaptation only occurs when ATF Is hotter than 65C. With this external cooler, definitely takes quite a bit longer to enter adaption mode.

As for the reason shifting problems occur only with hot ATF? I believe the conventional wisdom is hot ATF is thinner and easier to leak past wornout seals.

If anyone have poor shift when only hot, perhaps you can consider giving this a try if B4/flush/torque_mount/adaptation doesn't help. This is one more low cost step before going to the more expensive route of valvebody or total transmission rebuild.

Here are post install pics. The silver duct tape you see wraps around some plastic protection I wrapped around the hoses to protect it against the sharper edges of the hole where the hoses routes into the engine bay. I could find no other entry path. On retrospect, a short section of PCV pipe would have worked better. Need to be inserted before connecting up the hoses of course.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50219939341_655bb250c0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jvLjk8)DSCF7327-edited (https://flic.kr/p/2jvLjk8)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50219939256_50036d129d_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jvLjiE)DSCF7328-edited (https://flic.kr/p/2jvLjiE)

Xheart
01-29-2014, 07:14 PM
Thank you for sharing Howard.
I found this teardown video, if nothing, some entertainment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrAe4XBzENc.

howardc64
01-29-2014, 07:36 PM
Thank you for sharing Howard.
I found this teardown video, if nothing, some entertainment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrAe4XBzENc.

Yes, I've seen the videos by this transmission rebuilder. When I put in my Transgo linear solenoid rebuild kit and a couple of valves. I had to open up the front part of the valve body... there are a couple of small check balls and springs inside that dislodged when I opened it. Luckily the Transgo kit had some diagrams to show where they went. I didn't dare to open up any more of the valvebody after that :)

Please do note this valvebody rebuild was certainly incomplete and untested. I didn't even have vacuum to test how well the valves sealed etc... So its a bit blind. Just noting the repair attempt is merely rebuilding the commonly failed parts (linear solenoids) rather than a proper diagnoses + repair + check of operational correctness.

vtl
01-30-2014, 11:43 AM
I installed both coolers a bit higher (under the Volvo logo), because large and sharp salt particles are flying over MA roads at winters, and Hayden OC coolers do not look like impact-resistant. Front radiator has significant impact damage in lower 1/3, while the rest is pretty damage-free.

howardc64
01-30-2014, 02:45 PM
I installed both coolers a bit higher (under the Volvo logo), because large and sharp salt particles are flying over MA roads at winters, and Hayden OC coolers do not look like impact-resistant. Front radiator has significant impact damage in lower 1/3, while the rest is pretty damage-free.

Good point, more protection if higher up. I guess I have to live with my installation :)

nickbw
02-02-2014, 06:03 AM
I'm going to add a flat plate cooler in similar manner to MY01. I did the same to two previous cars and in each case there was an immediate substantial improvement.

sjonnie
02-03-2014, 11:07 AM
Use a bar-plate cooler (http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=2&Product_Code=OC-1677&Category_Code=hayden-transaver&Product_Count=1). Much more durable, no sign of damage to mine (installed in exactly same place as Howards) after 100k miles.

howardc64
03-02-2014, 11:56 PM
Just came back from transmission adaptation run. Outside temperature is about 40F. Hot ATF runs about 65C with this external cooler. Adaptation sequence only starts at 65C so not so easy to enter adaptation with this greater cooling ability. In prior adaptation efforts without the external cooler. I saw 87C+ pretty regularly when the ATF is hot.

So 20C+ seems to be realistic benefit of an external cooler.

von dutchoven
03-09-2014, 05:28 PM
i just added a cooler to my '01xc when i recently did a gibbon's flush. i thought it shifted fine when cold before but now it is even better. i'm assuming that is the new fluid. it still has noticeable up shifts 1-2, 2-3 and hard 2-1 down shifts when hot but it takes longer to get to this point. i haven't done an adaptation yet for a couple of reasons. first i don't have a vida/dice and second i thought i would do another drain and fill or flush at about 3-5 thousand miles. i've driven about 2 thousand so far. i'm also in need of a lower torque mount so that might improve things. the one on the car is pretty shot. it also has hard garage shifts when hot so i am thinking it will need a new valve body. the car does have 182k on it so i am not sure i want to dump too much money into it.
john

blueXC2001
08-13-2014, 06:35 AM
I wonder how many of you have installed one of these ATF coolers.

PierreC
08-19-2014, 10:37 PM
This may be an obvious question, but is this cooler installed in series with the existing (i.e. built into the radiator) ATF cooler or does it bypass it?

PS Seven years ago I "discovered" this forum and saved my transmission using a Gibbons-method flush (at about 70k miles). Now at about 140k miles (an a few flushes + Magnefine filters later) it is showing the hot shift symptoms described by Howard in this tread and in other threads, so I have ordered an external transmission cooler.

kutcht1
08-20-2014, 05:15 AM
The cooler does not bypass the internal cooler. It gets added when you splice it into the top cooler hose which is the return line. Many people also have added the inline filter in the same spot.
TomK

PierreC
08-20-2014, 12:53 PM
Thanks Tom

2001 AWD Goodness
08-27-2014, 11:53 AM
when u added the cooler and tapped into the upper cooler line, did u split the line at the metal end or cut it at the rubber end?

vtl
08-27-2014, 12:01 PM
Rubber.

2001 AWD Goodness
08-27-2014, 01:09 PM
kewl. i will probably add it to my wagon while i have the engine out replacing the rear main seal this weekend

Tonyx
09-04-2014, 08:24 AM
It seems to undermine the point of adding the external cooler if one runs it in series with the internal radiator cooler. Since the engine coolant will always be running hotter, running the external cooler in series makes it secondary engine coolant cooler. Heat flow: engine coolant -> internal trans oil cooler -> external trans oil cooler.

As the transmission runs best(ie no shift issues) at cold, wouldn't it best to bypass the internal trans oil cooler all together?

vtl
09-04-2014, 08:44 AM
Transmission runs best at operating temperature. In Volvo design transmission overheats. Additional oil cooler helps to evacuate extra heat when needed: heat exchange rate grow with temperature difference.

Tonyx
09-04-2014, 09:35 AM
"running best at operating temperature" just means it is most efficient. The difference in efficiency between cold and hot transmission is small compared to engine efficiency difference.

Is there clearer reason why cooler trans oil would be less desirable?

vtl
09-04-2014, 10:03 AM
"running best at operating temperature" just means it is most efficient. The difference in efficiency between cold and hot transmission is small compared to engine efficiency difference.
It means, internal gaps, springs force, fluid viscosity and pressure are within parameters this device is designed to work with. Running away from optimum point is not good for any mechanism.

Engine coolant temperature is about 90C in radiator (or less). Ideal ATF temperature is about 85C. Engine coolant is also heating up ATF, when it needs so. By complete bypass of original ATF cooler (heat exchanger) you may do more harm to transmission than good.

Ideally, all that system should include ATF thermostat to bypass external cooler when ATF is not warm enough. People often do so in more cold parts of the planet, where ATF is a honey-like substance in the mornings.