MY DEALERSHIP IS BUYING ME NEW TIRES!!

[LisaPhish]

Well, they're doing it!  Though they haven't, as many have suggested, tried putting some guaranteed smooth wheels and tires off another car on mine to be sure. . .  the Volvo Rep has agreed to let the dealership put yet another, set of tires, new BRAND, on my car.

If your dealership offered to get you ANY TIRES YOU WANTED to put onto your stock wheels, what would you get?

I think I want to go with the Michelin Pilot Sport AS, in the 225/60/WR16 size.  The extremely knowledgeable salesman at TireRack told me that these are awesome tires, and are within 1% of the size of the original tires (215/65/16) - and since their computers suggest staying within 3% - these should be a great fit.  What do you think??  Any suggestions???  

Thanks in advance..........

              Lisa  http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

[1Lieutenant]

I suggest you go for the SMOOTHEST riding tire you can find.  I would go with an all season high performance, if available, but one with smooth tread (Yokahama AVS DB comes to mind).  I would not go for all out high performance due to the stiffer sidewalls transferring more road vibration.  Explain to the guys at Tire Rack and see what they suggest. Best of luck.

Steve

[Gundo]

good luck.

i've had really good luck with michelins

I haven't spoken on this topic before, but you are doing exactly what I had to do with a '98 Tahoe I bought used from a dealer.  after months of complaining, they finally bought me a new set of tires...and, lo and behold, the shimmy/vibration was gone with new tires!

[LisaPhish]

This is the tire I mentioned above. It's listed under ULTRA HIGH PERFORMANCE ALL SEASON.

Link to Michelin Pilot Sport AS (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+A%2FS)

[Art]

Lisa,

I think it's great news that you're getting a new brand of tires from the dealer. Your choice of Michelins is also a good one. The O.D. matches that of the stock Scorpians. http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

However, I also think the suggestion of having your dealer install a set of smooth wheels and tires from another XC on the lot makes plenty of sense and may provide you with a much clearer answer as to what is causing the vibration. Best to cover all the bases just to be sure.

[wiz]

Nokian WR. Same outside dimension as Pirelli Scorpion (27").

Nokian Tires (http://www.nokiantires.com/indexen.html)

[AkXCman]

There are lots of good tires available, but the one that is perfect for you will depend upon the type of driving you do, the road conditions in your area and most importantly, how much time you spend on ice and snow.

Our XC probably won't need replacement tires for some time, but I have poked around looking at whats available. I do like the specs for the Michelin Cross Terrain

Michelin Cross Terrain (http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/crossTerrainSUV.html)

The Cross Terrain looks like it would be a good replacement for an all-round use tire, especially if you encounter snow and do not wish to have a second set of snow tires.  Its currently not available in the right size for the stock rims, but maybe by the time mine need replacment. :>)

If you want the smoothest ride, then high performace car (non-suv) tires would be your best bet for summer and a good set of winter tires for the fun months.

[wiz]

looks like the Michelin Cross Terrain doesn't come in 215/65/16... http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Hiro's XC]

Thanks Wiz.

You beat me to it. The Nokians are outstanding tires with superior winter traction. And they are more capable than the Scoprians in all conditions. But they are expensive and hard to get. Suburban tire in the IL area has the best prices by far that I have found. They negotiate too.

Jason

[Ron3KL]

Round ones without any flat spots... http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Seriously, is there a lot of available choice?

A couple of months ago while looking for a set of lock bolts (no success so far) for my Tellus wheels at the local tyre dealer, I also asked about availability of tyres in the XC size. He only had two matching brands in his computer database and it would have to be a special order. This may just be the situation in Australia mind you.

I've had Michelin's in the past and have loved them for their handling and their quietness but on Australia's coarse chip tarmac roads they do not have a long life, especially the front ones on a front wheel drive car and even more especially if you drive, ahem, enthusiastically.

I'm surprised at how noisy the Scorpions are. They seem to handle well, but its early days yet.

In the past few years my wife and I fitted TOYO Proxes M+S (mud and snow) tyres to her 4WD Corolla and subsequently TOYO Proxes H4 to our subsequent vehicles - Corolla Sprinter liftback and Volvo 850. The brand was recommended to us by the same tyre dealer as above and we were very surprised. Quiet, long life and good handling - even the M+S on the 4WD.

[wiz]

Hiro's XC, I don't think this is the winter tire we were talking about in another thread a couple of days ago (they are still selling the Nokian Hakkapeliitta NRW - I checked on the Nokian web site). The WR came top of the list on a dealer page thrown up by a search engine:

Nokian WR (http://www.etires.com/tireSpec.jsp?specID=3415) (This page is taken out of it's frame - go to www.etires.com (http://www.etires.com) and enter 215 - 65 - 16 in the "Size" fields to see the whole selection.)

That's how I found it... http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The nice thing is that it comes in the exact right size for the stock XC wheels. The NRW doesn't. http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[LisaPhish]

Hmmmm.  Nokians that Wiz recommended, or the Michelin Pilot Sport AS........?http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif  

I drive alot, and mostly on back roads.  Highway, probably once a week.  I guess I qualify as an aggressive driver,  I like to accelerate through turns, and I like to feel the road.  The winters here in NE NY are unpredictable.  We can have lots and lots of snow one year, and nothing the next.  

Jason tells me that the Michelins last for only 20 to 30K?  That's definitely not something I had thought about earlier. . .

? http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif

[Ron3KL]

That distance with the Michelins matches my experience too.

[LisaPhish]

Well, the decision's been made for me.  I'm going with the Nokian WR's because the dealership will not even consider buying the Michelin's unless they are the EXACT same size.  Even though the 225/60's are within 1% of the 215/65's, they won't do it.  Thus, NOKIAN WR'S it shall be!  

Not sure when yet, but will definitely keep you informed.  

As far as TRYING a set of smooth wheels and tires to MAKE SURE, doesn't seem like something they wanto be bothered with.  Silly, but hey, we get new tires, if it still shakes, that's their problem!  

Fingers crossed.

Happy driving.............. Lisa http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/music.gif

[wiz]

From a Nokian press release:

"The Nokian WR is developed in particular for the needs of drivers in Central Europe, and what is known as the all weather plus category, in the North American markets... The products will be available world-wide for consumers in Autumn 2002."

"The Nokian WR is developed for fast driving and changing wintery conditions. Special emphasis has been placed on the tyre's handling and wet grip properties. The Nokian WR tread is a new full silica compound that considerably increases the tyre's wet grip and wear."

"The innovative product replaces the Nokian NRW winter tyre, which achieved excellent test results in Autumn 2001 published by significant German magazines."

Here's what it looks like:

[wiz]

Whoops - picture was missing...

[LisaPhish]

Thank you for that, Wiz, I also like the tread pattern on these tires, they are similar to the Michelin Pilot Sport's and also very similar to the Bridgestone Potenza's I used to use on my Audi's which I absolutely loved.  I'm excited, hope this does it!

http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif Lisa http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Hiro's XC]

Sorry Wiz for not getting back to you. You did find that these replaced the NRW. They carry the DOT's winter snowflake rating as well.

Lisa,

These will last a lot longer than the Michelins, close to them in the handeling dept, but with a little more roll in the corners. You can't get everything in one tire, but this is close.

Jason

[LisaPhish]

Thanks Jason.  The car's going in on Monday to get the new tires.  I'm psyched.  The car's really growing on my every day, and I know I'll LOVE it when the vibration is completely gone.  Thanks everybody for helping me through this tire dilemna!!!! http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif  http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif
   Lisa

[LisaPhish]

I think I just want to CRY at this point.

Obviously, the car is no better. I mean, yes, I notice the new tires, they are nice and I definitely prefer them to the Scorpians, but the initial problem, the vibration, is STILL THERE. Stupid people. Two sets of new tires later........ had they listened and tried a smooth set of wheels and tires off another car to begin with, they would not have wasted all this time and money!

So, the story....... I picked up the car, and my husband was driving behind me in the Passat. He signaled just 1/8 of a mile out of there ( I hadn't even gotten up to 30mph yet) to pull over. I did so, and he gets out and starts looking at the tires. THE TWO TIRES ON THE PASSENGER'S SIDE WERE ON BACKWARDS. BACKWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We went back, my husband was LIVID.......... and this stupid KID came out and took the car. (you'd think since this was my 5th time there, they'd have their top tech take care of us........ ) Well, 45 minutes later, the car's finished again. We looked at the wheels and tires and there is a HUGE SCRAPE along one of the wheels and new tires, the finish came off of around 9" of the edge of one of my tires - upon closer examination - 3 of the 4 wheels were badly scraped and dinged up. My husband told me to go drive in on the highway and see how it felt. I DIDN'T EVEN WANTO GO BACK TO THE DEALERSHIP. It shook just as bad as ever. I had something in a paper bag in the passenger's seat which was rattling sooo much on the highway; further demonstrating how much the seats and floor of this car rattle, STILL.

I am seriously considering just filing for LEMON LAW. Who's to say they didn't torque the wheels down too tight the FIRST time they worked on this, and possibly BENT a ROTOR or something? Maybe a wheel is bent. I don't know. But honest, after 5 trips to the dealership, and over 40 hours later.... I don't trust them, I don't want to go to them, and I don't know if I want a Volvo anymore. I don't know what the heck to do at this point.

http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Lisa

[AkXCman]

I'm so sorry to hear that your saga continues. I had hoped that new tires would have solved your problem. From the way they treated your rims, they obvioulsy don't know what they are doing, and don't give a hoot. For all we know, the rims may be the problem. A simple switch of rims and tires from a smooth xc would have helped solved whether the vibration is associated with the rims/tires or the drivetrain.

I agree with you, it's probably time to try the lemon law route. As I mentioned before, our XC has a very minor, but noticeable vibration as well. Most people who drive trucks or American SUV's probably would not even notice it, but it sure isn't silky smooth like the Audi's I have owned. It sounds like your vibration is much worse than ours. We have been driving our XC since Jan 01 and she's a keeper despite her flaws (which are few)

http://www.tmurrell.com/volvofall.jpg

[pico de luuks]

Sorry to hear that Lisa. Too bad you still can't enjoy your XC !
I really hope there will be light at the end of this tunnel for you.
Meanwhile, try to take the scenic dirtroads like in akXCman's cool pic above. You won't notice the vibration as much... http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Heads up! http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

[1Lieutenant]

Lisa,

Sounds like your dealer either doesn't care or is an idiot (or both).  Why they didn't check the runout on the rotors and wheels, as well as other rotating parts boggles the mind.  In CT, the lemon law state that if the car has had a problem that the dealer cannot repair after 4 tries OR the car has been out of service for 30 days, the car qualifies.

I think you have a good case.  Best of luck.

Steve

[DanishXCViking]

Lisa check this link:

Lemon Law (http://www.nationallemonlawcenter.com/)

Good luck. http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

DXCV

[LisaPhish]

Thank you, thank you, and thank you!  In NY State they have 4 tries to fix a problem.  Hence, I believe 6 tries is more than enough.  My brother says they will probably want to replace mine with another, but I don't know what I want to do anymore.  Honestly, I never want to have to deal with this dealership again!  There's another one in Westchester County, but it's owned by the same person!  http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif

Lisa

[Hiro's XC]

I'm now in the same boat.....The dealer here, Volvo of Lisle, Il refuses to look further into the issue. I even brought in their own service rder from the tech stating that the tires were out of round. They said that they could take my car and sometime get it over to a Pirelli Dealer to MAYBE get a set of new scoprians on it. But I wouldn't get a loaner. Oh, the day before this they said they would swap the tires for a new set off a car that was going into demo service. They now refuse to do that. So I went and ordered a new set of Nokians and willl have them on Friday. I footed the $525 for the price of tires and the installation. I intend on getting Volvo involved with Pirelli tomorrow morning.

Don't use Volvo of LISLE, IN LISLE, IL.

There I said it. They now suck in my book. Shame, their parts dept is excellent.

Jason

[Ab_Fab]

Lisa and Hiro, I really feel sorry for you.

I would now love to try to drive your XC's to see if they really are different to mine or am I just more tolerant?

I do have a very small vibration when driving, but to me it is almost unnoticable and defintiely not annoying.

In fact I have even noticed that when the car is standing still, if I rest my hand on the steering wheel very lightly there is a very faint vibration. Does this maybe mean it is just the 4WD system?? Anyone else noticed this?


Neil

[wiz]

The dealership is so crucial to the user experience. It was pretty apparent even from Lisa's early posts that her dealer was really poor in the customer satisfaction department, and now we have Hiro, who earlier was recommending his dealer, very unhappy with his most recent interaction.

Interesting that Volvo do not seem to have a long-term feedback program on dealerships. (Maybe they do - I've never registered a car purchase with them.) The dealership surveys are useless - it's Volvo that needs to do the monitoring if they care about what kind of experience the customers are having.

[LisaPhish]

Jason that's not right!!!  You should not have to pay for something when so many people are experiencing the same problem!  Call the 800 Customer Svc number and tell them about all of us who are getting their tires replaced!  My dealership, fyi, is Hudson Valley Volvo of Wappinger Falls, NY.  

I too, notice a distinct vibration in the steering wheel while in Park. . .  but the vibration while driving is all over.  Hey, either way, it's not acceptable to me.  If it was a $15,000 maybe, but $40,000?  (yea, I paid too much too&#33http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Lisa

[Hiro's XC]

Well,

First. The vibration at idle is the inherant nature of the 5 cylinder engine. They have 2 then 3 cylinders firing at a time. It makes them a little lumpy.

Second. I spoke to Volvo customer assist yesterday. They wer REAL CURT with me at first. I explained AGAIN what was going on and the fact that I'm an insurance agent with 2000+ clients and a bad experience goes a LONG way. That seemed to turn it around a bit.

Next they tell me that I "could" void my warranty if I go and have the Nokians installed. PUUUUUUULLLEEEAAASSEE!!!!!!
Let's see, same load rating, same size, BZZZTTTT!! Wrong answer. I told them that this needed to be resolved by Friday as the car and I along with 3 others are driving to INDY for the F1 race. About an hour later she actually called me back and are told me they are getting to the bottom of the situation. We'll see. I also mentioned all of the other issues the rest of you have had. She did make note of this too.

I'll keep you posted.

TIA

Jason

[wiz]

GREAT JOB, Jason!! http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Void the warranty, with a dimensionally identical product?? They've got to be joking!!! http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif

[Gundo]

LisaPhish,

FWIW, I used Mount Kisco Volvo in Mount Kisco, NY for about 5 years and they were great.

Good luck.

[LisaPhish]

That's good to know about Mt. Kisco...... I should have switched from the beginning.  I just sent a letter to the owner of my shop outlining my experiences and asking to get out of the lease.  We'll see what happens.  I'm sure if my car was good from day one, I would feel different about Volvo's, but unfortunately, my first experience has been quite ludicrous.  

As far as the Nokian's, GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!  EXACT SAME DIMENSIONS HERE?  How can they justify VOIDING your warrantee for that?  It makes absolutely NOOOO SENSE.

Lisa

[Hiro's XC]

Well, I stopped in about 1 pm to see if they had the serpentine belt replaced yet. (they hadn't even looked at it...) So, I got the service manager out there, the service writer, the ast. mgr and a senior tech. the whole point was to cold start the car, on a cold morning to duplicate the noise. Hence dropping it off the night before. Well it made the noise. Thank god. The tech blurts out, 'oh, it's the serpentine belt issue!" The service manager gave him a dirty look and he shut up. I then mentioned that I knew about the issue and not to skirt the problem.

To the tire issue. They are gettirng the regional involved, and the Pirelli guy, but refuse to give me a car for the week or so it will take. And they refuse to let me put the tires (nokians) on the car. Well, they came in today and they are going on tomorrow. I am not driving 500+ miles more on tires that will cause MORE damage to the car!  They just don't get it. They then suggested that I bring them to them to install, but there was no guarentee that I would get reembursed. Oh, if they install, I loose the dealer that sold them to me warranty and free rotation for life. Volvo won't rotate them for free.....

Jason

[LisaPhish]

Hi Jason,

Why do dealerships all handle things so differently?  I mean, these are Volvo's, and it's Volvo's reputation they are trying to save, correct?  Did you call Volvo customore svc.  800-458-1552http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif  Where are you again?  It's just not right.  They told you that the tires are egg shaped and now they won't repair the problem?  

Keep us up to date on your progress.......... good luck!

Lisa

[1Lieutenant]

Not that this really helps you guys, but I have had excellent service at Mitchell Volvo in Simsbury CT.  I haven't had problems with my 2002 XC but I certainly did with my 1999 XC.  They really went out of their way to help out.

Steve

[Hiro's XC]

Well,

The new Nokian WR-H is the tire to drive on. I put 700 miles on the car this weekend and it was stellar  in comparision to the scorpians.  did throw a small 1/2oz weight and pick up a little vibration but the new tires solved 95% of the vibration issue. The remaining 5% I will chalk up to the drive train.

Thse tires are solid, grip well, brake far better, and just have a lot more attached to the ground feeling. They are SOOO much better made than the Pirelli.

An outstanding replacement tire in every way.

Jason

[wiz]

Awesome! How was the race? http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Hiro's XC]

Thanks for asking!  As usuall the race was excellent! Some may not like this one, but somebody has to catch Ferrari. Sheeesshhh. They ran away with it, again. Well, the one great thing was that the now defunct Orange/Arrows team was selling their remaining merchandise REAL CHEAP! Under half price.

Back to the tires. I have not heard from Volvo yet. No big suprise there. They just assume that I'll go away. That will NEVER happen.  

Jason

[wiz]

I did see some of the race on the telly. Couldn't believe it when the two Williams cars collided... http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif But the Ferraris were tremendous, not just the cars, but the drivers - so consistent, I was just really impressed.

How's the noise level with the Nokians? I've heard they are a bit noisier than the Scorpions...

[Hiro's XC]

Noise, hmmmm it's different. They are about the same but it's a more tollerable noise, not quite so high pitched.

Williams......those morons. I think Montoya thought his team mate backed off. BZZZTT!!! Of well. Nothing can truely captuure the priceless look on a firstimers face when they HEAR them for the first time. Not only the fact that they spin 18,000 rpm, but the shrill of the 3.0L V10. Give me goose bumps just writing about it! And the fact them go down the 1600 ft back straight and reach 180 mph AND brake to 70mph in 100 ft. Amazing.

One other mentionable note. The Mercedes pace car and medical cars are way cool! The pace is a SL550AMG Kompressor, 496hp and 516ft lbs of torque! The med car is a modified C class wagon (estate)(touring) with the 3.5V-6 Kompressor engine. 349hp. It does about 150 down the front straight with the light bar!

Jason

[xcdriver]

I'm glad to hear that Hiro's new Nokians has taken care of most of the vibration problem. I think I am going to try to get my dealership to buy a set for our XC.

These tires seem to be "winter" tires and I just wanted to ask Hiro (or anyone else) if you have any concerns about driving on them during the blistering hot midwest summers (it seems you're near Chicago, we're in St. Louis).

I know the "winter" designation mostly has to do with their treads and performance in wet, slick conditions, but didn't know if there are any negative ramifications associated with driving those tires on pavement that's been baking in 90-100 degree temperatures.

[wiz]

Well, Nokian sells the tire as "for all-year service in sport utility vehicles (http://www.nokian.com/nokian_wr_suv_en.html)"

Here's what it looks like:

[Supertoyz]

Hope this helps you folks with the dealers claiming that simply changing your tires to another make / model will void your warranty.

I'm sure some of you have heard of the " Magnusson-Moss Act" this protects consumers from just such threats.  If you do a search you will find some detailed information regarding it but the summary is as follows.  A manufacturer can't require that you use OEM only parts on their vehicles unless they offer those parts free of charge.  For most items (use common sense please) you can use whatever you like without fear of it voiding your warranty.  you can use any gas, oil (of the correct specs), tires, wax, brakes, headlight bulbs, wheels, filters etc.  of any make without it voiding your warranty.  If a failure does occur it's up to the manufacturer to prove that it was a result of your installed parts if they refuse to cover it.  

Some common sense scenarios:

You modify the engine heavily for some serious hp gains......your transmission fails.  Don't excpect a warranty.

You install new Nokia tires of the same size etc......your radio fails - warranty.  Your car won't start or run right - warranty.  Etc.  

It's mostly common sense but it's illegal to void a consumers warranty for the use of aftermarket parts.  The one thing you need to be cautious about is if you do have a failure and it can be proved that the aftermarket parts were the cause then warranty can be refused on that claim.

[LisaPhish]

Supertoyz is soooo right.  They can't control what you buy, unless, it's some huge monster truck tire that would break the AWD system!  Isn't it pretty much a fact that car makers usually put on so-so tires?  I'm always excited when they wear and I can finally choose my own!

Also, XC Driver, I most definitely prefer the Nokians to the Pirelli's.  Much nicer ride, better in the corners, not loud, and nice tread pattern!  Haven't used them in snow yet, but I've heard they are great.

Lisa

[harden]

Lisa -

Just by chance I checked back here to see what was going on. Sorry to see you are still having problems. I wondered when you said earlier, taht you were from NY, where exactly you purchased you're car. I was surprised to hear it was from HV Volvo. We are on our second XC from them and have received good service, but also a little less than excellent understanding of one of our more mojor problems (shattered sunroof that I posted about earlier, problem is with customer care now)

Unfortunatley, you may not get much sympathy at one of the other Volvo dealers in the area, as they are owned by the same auto sales group (Hudson Valley, Mt. Kisco, Palisades, and Danbury, I believe). If I were you, and were looking for a different dealer to check with, I would try Big D Volvo, in White Plains I believe, or Ramsey Volvo down near Mahwah, NJ.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, I plan on putting new tires on the car soon, I would be willing to let you swap out my tires/rims that day to find out if it makes a difference. The only time I have had a shimmy wihth ours, was when we lost a wheel weight. Let me know, I live over in Cornwall.

Dan

[xcdriver]

Thank you all for your responses . . . I plan to go into the dealership tomorrow armed with the information from the message boards here and see what they'll do for me.

FYI - I just got a call from Volvo North America and I answered a number of questions about my purchase experience, the dealership, the car itself, etc. I gave this poor woman an earful about the rough ride of the car and mentioned that I have heard from people that have the exact same problem while others have much smoother rides. I also expressed my feeling that there might have been a batch of Pirellis that were defective, which would account for this discrepancy. I don't know who sees the data from this survey, but hopefully Volvo will take it seriously and take some action on this issue.

Anyway, I will let you all know what happens at the dealership tomorrow. Wish me luck.

[Hiro's XC]

On this car these tire are great in the heat. On a T5 they wouldn't be so hot....They are too soft for the sporty nature of that car. I was in some good heat with them already and they are fine. You will be amazed by the snow capabilities of these tires. The NWR is just as good and I have run them year round on a few cars.

Jason