Black Ice

[BillAileo]

Last evening Northeastern Pennsylvania had a quick sequence of weather events that turned most roads into ice rinks. I was out there in my XC70. I'm happy to say that the all wheel drive functioned very well indeed. Just about all the cars I encountrered were spinning away while the Volvo smoothly moved on. Nevertheless, I got off those roads as quickly as possible to avoid becoming the victim someone else'
s learning experience.

Bill

[1Lieutenant]

Ditto!

Driving to work in CT today on black ice.  Numerous accidents with many people spinning and sliding off the roads.  XC with Nokian WRs did the trick.  No evidence of slippage.

Steve

[XCMark]

Guys, I gotta ask:

In reference to my thread re: my first time experience with AWD, do the snow tires make 20-, 50-, 100% of a difference? If I don't have snows, the AWD shouldn't be useless, right? Do you have the DSTC?

I came across a small ice patch in shade and had some slippage. I understand we can't overcome basic physics of motion, momentum, etc. but I've had what I think are simple meetings with ice and was surprised to feel the slippage. What's going on? Am I naïve to think that I won't feel any slippage before the other wheels kick in?

Maybe I'm just too finicky or impatient... any tips?

[BillAileo]

I believe I do feel a momentary slippage as the car senses the traction situation but it is extremely brief.  

I do not have snow tires and I do not plan to get them for driving conditions here in Northeast Pa.  In addition, snows wouldn't help on ice (unless they were studded).  Prior to getting my XC70 we put a couple hundred thousand miles on all wheel drive Subarus and we never used snows and never got stranded.  From my limited experience so far, I think I'll do every bit as well with the XC.

I do not have DSTC.

Way back in my 240 Volvo days I used four snow tires in Winter, and needed to.  But, as summarized above, the traction situation with these cars is entirely different.  Of course, if cost and time were no issue, I'd be happy to have a winter set of Nokians....

Bill

[Chipshot]

Depending on the tires and the conditions, I think snow tires (especially studded ones) often offer more help with whoa than with go. I have felt plenty of slippage when driving my XC70 on snowy or icy surfaces, usually as a result of over-application of throttle. Driven judiciously, the XC70 seems to be as close to an ideal winter car as anything I have ever had in my stable.

[littlewaywelt]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (XCMark @ Dec. 03 2003,01:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guys, I gotta ask:

In reference to my thread re: my first time experience with AWD, do the snow tires make 20-, 50-, 100% of a difference? If I don&#39;t have snows, the AWD shouldn&#39;t be useless, right? Do you have the DSTC?

I came across a small ice patch in shade and had some slippage. I understand we can&#39;t overcome basic physics of motion, momentum, etc. but I&#39;ve had what I think are simple meetings with ice and was surprised to feel the slippage. What&#39;s going on? Am I naïve to think that I won&#39;t feel any slippage before the other wheels kick in?

Maybe I&#39;m just too finicky or impatient... any tips?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Snow tires do make a difference in traction, with regard to steering, acceleration, lateral movement and braking. &nbsp;If I lived in Denver and traveled regularly up the passes, I&#39;d invest in some good snowtires on dedicated steel wheels. &nbsp;By using the steel wheels, you can change the tires yourself each season and not get gouged at the dealership or garage.

With the 03 Haldex system it&#39;s unlikely that you&#39;ll notice much slippage. &nbsp;The wheels only have to slip 1/7th of a rotation before power is transfered somewhere else.

The best tip I can give is to be gentle with the throttle, brake &amp; steering inputs when it&#39;s snowy or icy. &nbsp;If you are pushing through deep snow, momentum and steady throttle pressure are your friends. &nbsp;The manual shift mode can be a big help in snowy conditions.

[NeuDaddi]

It looks like my wife and I will have a chance to find out how the XC70 does in DC winter weather this weekend. &nbsp;We&#39;ve got freezing rain, sleet, and a day or so of snow on the radar. &nbsp;I can&#39;t wait&#33;

[Chipshot]

Who else gets frustrated being stuck behind others driving vehicles that just don&#39;t have what it takes when the going gets slippery? &nbsp;I sometimes have to remind myself to be patient. &nbsp;And occasionally I wonder whether having someone in front of me slowing me down might not be a good thing.

[Big]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BillAileo @ Dec. 03 2003,02:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do not have snow tires and I do not plan to get them for driving conditions here in Northeast Pa. In addition, snows wouldn&#39;t help on ice (unless they were studded).[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You know your local conditions best. Here in the Oregon snow zone, the severe winter tires (aka studless snow tires or friction tires) are very effective on ice. That&#39;s what they are designed for with rubber that says compliant in cold temperatures and lots of edges to bite into the ice. One popular brand even has ground up walnut shells in the tread to help traction&#33; Winter tires will stop me in less than half the distance of the stock M+S tires and have almost no slip from a standing start. This is true on ice and slick snow. Of course, there are always extreme conditions that can humble the best prepared driver.

Speaking of Subarus, we were behind one moments after it rolled off the highway during a late night spring storm this year. It had stock tires, we had Nokian NRWs. We slowed, did a U-turn and helped while waiting for an ambulance to arrive. Even the ambulance had traction problems on the mountain grade. Interesting note is that we were one of the few cars that stopped (or could stop?). It was nasty. The Subaru driver, who lost a lot of blood but was Ok, said that everything seemed fine and then suddenly he was off the road. That and other less dramatic experiences have sold me on winter tires.

[XCMark]

Yes, judicious driving is key, not to overthrottle. What about the idea of &#39;stiping&#39; your tires for better traction? If you haven&#39;t heard of that, it&#39;s where a garage puts lots of cuts width-wise all around the rubber to enhance gripping. Was actually a trendy thing to do a few years back and shops are always offering it. It&#39;s pretty cheap.

[Chipshot]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (XCMark @ Dec. 03 2003,17:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What about the idea of &#39;stiping&#39; your tires for better traction? If you haven&#39;t heard of that, it&#39;s where a garage puts lots of cuts width-wise all around the rubber to enhance gripping. Was actually a trendy thing to do a few years back and shops are always offering it. It&#39;s pretty cheap.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Won&#39;t that mean kissing your tire warranty goodbye?

[XCMark]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Won&#39;t that mean kissing your tire warranty goodbye?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Actually, it isn&#39;t something you can see, believe it or not, they are more like fine slices rather than cuts... nothing is &#39;removed&#39; just lots of slices done very neatly by machine.

Technically, I suppose you have a point about the warranty, because the tires are altered...

[BillAileo]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Big @ Dec. 03 2003,15:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here in the Oregon snow zone, the severe winter tires (aka studless snow tires or friction tires) are very effective on ice. That&#39;s what they are designed for with rubber that says compliant in cold temperatures and lots of edges to bite into the ice. One popular brand even has ground up walnut shells in the tread to help traction&#33; Winter tires will stop me in less than half the distance of the stock M+S tires and have almost no slip from a standing start. This is true on ice and slick snow. Of course, there are always extreme conditions that can humble the best prepared driver.

Speaking of Subarus, we were behind one moments after it rolled off the highway during a late night spring storm this year. It had stock tires, we had Nokian NRWs. We slowed, did a U-turn and helped while waiting for an ambulance to arrive. Even the ambulance had traction problems on the mountain grade. Interesting note is that we were one of the few cars that stopped (or could stop?). It was nasty. The Subaru driver, who lost a lot of blood but was Ok, said that everything seemed fine and then suddenly he was off the road. That and other less dramatic experiences have sold me on winter tires.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Big,
With testimonials like that I may have to break down and buy another set of wheels &amp; a set of Nokian WRs...

Bill

[realq]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (littlewaywelt @ Dec. 03 2003,07:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">With the 03 Haldex system it&#39;s unlikely that you&#39;ll notice much slippage. ?The wheels only have to slip 1/7th of a rotation before power is transfered somewhere else.

The best tip I can give is to be gentle with the throttle, brake &amp; steering inputs when it&#39;s snowy or icy. ?If you are pushing through deep snow, momentum and steady throttle pressure are your friends. ?The manual shift mode can be a big help in snowy conditions.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I experienced ?a slippage on the parking lot while driving around 5mh this morning, there was some snow/rain (boston area) ?but the park lot had been plowed . I was making a right turn and my 03 XC just slipped several feet to a pile of snow. No damage but I was a bit surprised that AWD did not prevent it.

Any one feels the stopping ?distance is excessively long when ABS is engaged? I heard all the noise, the car stayed straight but it just did not stop.

[littlewaywelt]

The awd is primarilly going to reduce wheel slipage via spinning on forward motion. &nbsp;If you were turning you will definitely notice more lateral slipage and rotational slipage as you are fighting ertia as well. &nbsp;There isn&#39;t a lot that you can do about it as you&#39;re talking more about traction than the mechanics of the awd system. &nbsp;My comments were primarilly addressing forward motion like wheel spin from a stop rather than a loss of traction. DSTC may have helped in the situation you describe.