Steering swings to full stop, not to center?? (07)

[DennisM]

So, I was wondering if this where a Cross Country thing, or just a special treat for my own car.

At slow speed, i.e., maneuvering in a parking lot, departing from a stop and turning (right, as that is sharpest) at an intersection, or just doing a slow figure eight in a parking lot, as you get about 3/4 of the way to the full turn in the steering wheel (left or right) the steering wants to drag the wheel all the way to the full turn stop position, instead of wanting to return to center (where I thought all cars were required to go by design). For obvious reasons, I haven't turned the steering wheel that hard at high speed to test if it happens then too.

Seems like in an instance of spin/slide recovery, or extreme emergency maneuvering where correction/overcorrection is, or can be an issue, you would be fighting with the cars inherent desire to get completely out of control. So, is this common? Is there a failed part on my car? Is this just an AWD thing with the Volvo? You do not have to be accelerating to do this, it is just more pronounced. I can deal with it, but I can see how somebody that doesn't know it happens, could end up turning into a parked car, or a post while maneuvering in a parking garage, because with all the twists and tight turns, you feel it a lot.

If I where to be at a stop in a wide open parking lot, turn the wheel all the way to the stop, then start driving with my hands off the wheel, the car would stay in a tight circle. So not a good feature. This isn't a new thing or a change. Just something I noticed a while after purchase. I've just assumed it is a XC thing, and am just now remembering to ask around. Especially since I needed to find out about windshield wipers anyways. (followed a different thread)

Thanks

[MacNoob]

Seems to be normal. My '07 does that and has since I got it with 17k miles on it. There has been some other discussion and it seems to be a common trait.

[DennisM]

Wonder how they got that one past the NHTSA for approval when the model first came out? Strange. I always assumed that there were safety standards that had to be met before a production line could be approved for sale in the US. That is a pretty unsafe characteristic. Meh, I like pretty much everything else about the car. Actually, I really very much like my car.

Thanks for the reply.

Cheers,
Dennis

[bfife]

Had this same problem with my 02. replaced the lower control arms/w bushings and got the front end aligned (twice) and the situation is all gone. the 2nd front end tech said the toe was set at almost 1 inch in, front and rear. once that was resolved, it now drives like a normal car.

Barney

[DennisM]

That is interesting. You didn't have any abnormal tire wear? My tire wear is fine, and I don't feel anything out of whack with the steering, but just that issue. It doesn't take much of an alignment problem to create abnormal wear patterns, and an inch is huge. Interesting.

[Astro14]

Past 75% of steering at low speed is irrelevant on the road. Turn your wheel that much at high speed and you would roll any car. Even in a slide, folks rarely get close to full lock, unless they're overcontrolling...

[DennisM]

Not really a good excuse.

[foxtrapper]

Mine does this too. Tight low speed manuevers, like parking lot driving, and the steering self-powers itself over to the stops. Especially if I apply a bit of throttle.

[DennisM]

Thanks Fox. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't need to have the front end serviced.

[Sweet Lew]

Mine does this too. Tight low speed manuevers, like parking lot driving, and the steering self-powers itself over to the stops. Especially if I apply a bit of throttle.

Yup..Same here, and I JUST got an alignment and recently had the control arm bushings and inner tie rods replaced by the dealer.

[Astro14]

It's a strut front end thing. My truck, my MBs and the Packard don't do this. Volvos and Corolla do.

This is common in macpherson strut designs as the relative angles (Ackerman angles) change at extreme deflections off center. It makes no difference in driving stability or safety.

Odd that you guys haven't noticed this before...and odd that you can't distinguish between explanation and excuse...

[DennisM]

Cool. Well, not cool, but. . . cool. ( never mind) Thanks! [thumbup]

[marcinrudzki]

Same here!

[DennisM]

It's a strut front end thing. My truck, my MBs and the Packard don't do this. Volvos and Corolla do.

This is common in macpherson strut designs as the relative angles (Ackerman angles) change at extreme deflections off center. It makes no difference in driving stability or safety.

Odd that you guys haven't noticed this before...and odd that you can't distinguish between explanation and excuse...


Sure I can! Your second post was an explanation.


If you read the original post then read your first reply. . .


Past 75% of steering at low speed is irrelevant on the road. Turn your wheel that much at high speed and you would roll any car. Even in a slide, folks rarely get close to full lock, unless they're overcontrolling...

That was not helpful at all actually. Down south, you don't have to deal with a lot os snow and ice I guess, but up here in Maine, it is a way of life. The possibility of a loss of control that would require a steering wheel correction past the "75%" point is a possibility. Lots of causes, dog runs out in the road, bull winkle steps out from the pucker brush into your lane, what ever. So, when you have your hands full trying to recover a slide, it isn't a good thing to have your car working to spin you in circles. That is why they are 'supposed' to be designed to have the steering self center. Just like general aviation aircraft and 'positive vs negative static stability'. They are not designed to want to spin, or stall, and they should self recover from phugoid oscillations, amongst other things, not pull you further into trouble.

As far as being common in Macpherson strut designs, I have owned a few cars with it and driven many more that had it, and never had this be an issue. Hence my post.

[Astro14]

I grew up in Winnipeg and Connecticut. Lived in Vermont and Colorado.

It's a poor assumption that I don't know about ice, snow or cold...or how to handle a car in those conditions.

As far as phugoids - both in the F-14 and cars.

But I still don't think that what you've noticed is significant outside of a parking lot.

[DennisM]

Simple, it shouldn't be there at all. Great car, bad characteristic, be it in Vermont, Colorado, Maine or a parking lot. Bad. That simple. Bad. The fact that there is even a thread about it says it is a bad characteristic, and the fact that others post the same issue, says it is a bad characteristic. You can't set a trim tab to have your car steer "normal" at parking lot speeds, or upon accelerating onto a busy street via a hard right hand turn. You don't have the same benefits as you do in the Tomcat, and you can't tell me you don't want to trim up for approach when flying a plane.

A parent that was teaching their teenage son or daughter to drive in their Lexus, and then, tosses them the keys to the Cross Country in a parking garage at the mall, may forget to tell them that "this car" will want to steer you into a pole, parked car or pedestrian as you go around the tight turns in the garage, so take a firmer grip and don't let it get away from you. This is not something you should have to point out in a proper car. Especially "one of the safest cars on the road".

This is why I was wondering if I had a mechanical issue, or if this was Cross Country "normal". So, unfortunately, with the exception of $$$, it is normal.

[Astro14]

You've piqued my curiosity with this thread, so I've done some playing around with this - and I'll share what I think, but here's a key point: what you're experiencing is a change in force feedback in the controls, not a lack of stability in the vehicle itself. Two different properties.

Further, you're presuming that what happens at low speed will happen at high speed (this is not true, you can't extrapolate that simply, while the geometry is similar at higher speeds, the loads and forces are different, so the response is different).

Now, here's what I've found: 1. it's VERY speed-dependant and 2. what I've been able to feel is a diminution of power steering force feedback to center, not an actual steering powering over. Simply put, it loses strength of return, but it doesn't go away all together, not in my cars. And as previously stated, the effect is simply not there in the upper/lower control arm or multilink designs like the Mercedes, only in the strut design cars, like the Corolla, XC and the T5.

But the speed dependency is critical: if I do it at 2 MPH, there is almost no return feel...5 MPH, there is a large diminution in return feel but it's there...at 10 MPH, the return feel is better...I don't feel the diminution at all above 15 MPH (note, this took an empty parking lot in which to try it out).

So, your point: that this is somehow dangerous - is only true if you lose control of the car by making a near full-deflection steering input below about 5 MPH. Above that speed, the centering force is there, and the controls have stability (and as we said above, the vehicle stability was not in question, it was a question of control centering)...so, above walking speed, the car does have the return feel for a full deflection of the steering wheel.

Here is another point: even in a skid (and this I have not done in my Volvo since the last big snow in VB, but I have countless hours in my youth, and as I type this, I am in Stowe, VT where it just snowed, so, I tried it out this morning in my VW Passat rental car), a nice tail-out slide, it only took about 180 degrees of steering wheel deflection from straight to control the (intentional) big slide around a dirt road corner. This was a 20 MPH low-speed slide. You've notice this effect past 360 degrees of wheel (one full turn) and full lock on this car is close to 540 degrees (1 and 1/2 turns). So, again, what happens beyond the amount of steering needed to control the car is academic.

The airplane analogy is interesting as well - there are places in the aerodynamic envelope of conventional airplanes in which the controls do not want to return to trim, due to the changes in center of pressure on the surface itself - so, designers build in springs and other artifical "feel" to get those controls to return to trim.

Cars don't bother, since the only place in their envelope (based on my investigation) where this is an issue is below walking speed.

Were it to happen at a normal road speed, even at a relatively low 20 MPH, I would agree completely; that this is a defect.

To ensure that you DON'T have a mechanical issue (like too much toe out, or shot control arm bushings that allow excessive geometry changes, defects in other words), you should get your car checked out. I should mention that the control arm bushings, ball joints, struts and other steering parts in my cars are new, or nearly new. If you've got a control arm bushing that is allowing excessive play, it could allow the geometry to change excessively, leading to this effect in your XC.

Simply put: the effect is normal. The degree to which it happens in your car is not. Get it checked out.

That help?

[DennisM]

Sure. It is 'normal' for this car. If it is excessive, it could be a mechanical issue. It is an acceptable trait to some, but not all, and mostly, I got my original question answered, it isn't just my car that does it.

I will take the car out for a little playing around next time I have the opportunity, and will see at what speed it decides to start behaving itself. The vehicle just had a safety inspection, and they (the mechanics in Maine) like nothing better than the opportunity to point out a suspension issue (real or imagined) as they make good money selling you service and parts.

I thank you for the time you put in to testing the issue on your own vehicle, and your thoughts on the issue.

Cheers,

Dennis

[JRL]

I'm sorry but it is NOT normal
If your front end is new or in great shape, your tires are good and your alignment is spot on, this should not happen.

I do know what everyone is referring to from the design and ride height of an XC and it can happen but since all my cars are always kept in perfect shape, I do not experience this, never have...only with the occasional XC I've bought before I've gone through them.

[StuntmanMike]

So after reading this yeasterday, I gout curious, as I have never noticed mine doing it. Well while in a near deserted parking lot after running some errands this morning, I decided to try it out.

I DID experience it, but only under an extreme circumstance.

While basically idling in gear at maybe 2-3mph, I cut the wheel all the way over to the left. Lo and behold, yes, the wheel stayed over to the left and did not return to center. With my hands off the wheel the vehicle continued in the same arc.

However, it was only in the last half turn of steering input that it did it, before that it would return to center and straighten itself out.

Apparently I've neever needed to go to full lock, as I've never experienced this before, even when turning into a parking space. Even while making tight right turns from one narrow side street to another, the wheel immediately started to return to center after completing the turn.

So at least in happening to this degree under these circumstances, I fail to see any safety defect in this. In any emergency situation while at any speed over 5mph, I'm pretty sure it's downright impossible to feed in that much steering lock before having the front tires lose grip altogether and just understeer.

It's an interesting quirk, but no more.

Next time I drive another FWD car I'll try this to see if it does it.