Why is my XC so useless in the snow?

[cmercon]

First winter with my recently purchased 2001 XC 70. 850 having 850's for the last few years I figured this XC would be a big improvement. Long story short, I have brand new Artic Claws on it and the AWD works just fine. However when I stop anywhere snowy (even on my lawn) I lose traction instantly. I have better traction with my 1990 Volvo 780!! I have heard nothing but amazing things about these in the snow and it seems like once it gets going its an unstoppable snow tank, but what is going on here with the start and stops, my wife's 850 has the same tires and I can get up the driveway no issue, my XC its a struggle.
Whats wrong with my beast?

[JRL]

If your AWD is working properly, your choice of tires is probably wrong
A good XC is just fine in the snow.
Articulate better what "losing traction" means to you. In what manner?
It makes no sense that your old FWD would be fine and an AWD is not fine.

[cmercon]

What I mean is I spin when I am taking off on a snowy surface, If I stop in the middle of the hill on my driveway it is a struggle even in "winter" mode to make it. The 850 wagon we have has the same tires on it and will make it up at the same stop point on our driveway in "sport" mode. I have used these tires for a number of years on different vehicles and they have not failed me yet, I could not even make it up my father in-laws driveway that a Toyota Tercel a Ford Focus and a Olds Eighty Eight could. It seems like something is wrong here. I honestly would feel more confident in my 780 than this XC. If I am going at 20 mph or over I can make it up just about anything snow worthy that is thrown at me.
Also I do have good winter driving skills. Is something affected by the "gear selector function reduced" warning?

[JRL]

WHAT gear selector reduced function warning????

[cmercon]

Ever since I purchased it the screen has displayed gear selector reduced function. Has not seemed to affect performance at all, could this be part of the issue? what are the possible causes for an error like this?

[JRL]

It shouldn't (be running properly)
I really don't know what to say except have the codes pulled and find out what's going on with it, but you really should not be driving it this way!
Is it starting off the line in the right gear?

[cmercon]

Yeah its starting off in the right gear, I wont be able to have to codes pulled until next week. (my guy with Dice get back then) When I purchased the car the warning was on, I took the center console apart and found out the solenoid that operated the shifter brake lock was unplugged, plugged it back in and the warning disappeared but the solenoid was dead so it would not shift out of park. unplugged it and have run it that way ever since (almost 7,000 miles) Also all the indicator lights "manual mode" and winter mode work.

[JRL]

Odd deal but I guess it's OK to drive

[handyandy]

When say the wheels spin is it just the front or all 4 that spin starting to think is the VC not working or the angle drive hence no rear wheel drive. Get someone to watch when you're spinning.

[JRL]

He said it's worse than his FWD 850
Doesn't make much sense

[KB3MMX]

When say the wheels spin is it just the front or all 4 that spin starting to think is the VC not working or the angle drive hence no rear wheel drive. Get someone to watch when you're spinning.



^^^^^^^^^^^WHS


Sounds like it's not turning on AWD to me.


.

[billr99]

First winter with my recently purchased 2001 XC 70. 850 having 850's for the last few years I figured this XC would be a big improvement. Long story short, I have brand new Artic Claws on it and the AWD works just fine. However when I stop anywhere snowy (even on my lawn) I lose traction instantly. I have better traction with my 1990 Volvo 780!! I have heard nothing but amazing things about these in the snow and it seems like once it gets going its an unstoppable snow tank, but what is going on here with the start and stops, my wife's 850 has the same tires and I can get up the driveway no issue, my XC its a struggle.
Whats wrong with my beast?

I actually agree. Having had 700 and 800 series cars as well as my XC, I actually think that the XC isn't as balanced as the other two and, perhaps because it is a bit heavier, has a tendency to let inertia take over in the slippery stuff. It doesn't understeer as much as the 700s but when you do get it a bit sideways, it feels like it is going to keep on sliding whereas the 700 would take a bite eventually. With my 850, it was an R so it was way lower (than even the 700 with IPD springs and the XC with Eibachs) and with that lower CG, it just didn't slide at all. I will say though that the R was harder to get going and to stop thanks to the low profile rubber (I ran 17in 45 series both winter and summer treads). Of course, you also have to take into account any differences in tires as they can have a significant effect on handling and traction even if the car is AWD. I've run Nordic-designed snows (Gislaveds or Nokians) on all three chassis but even at that some are better than others. A consideration nonetheless though.

Cheers,

Bill

[Astro14]

You don't mention the year, but my guess is that you have an '03 or newer with Haldex.

Sounds to me like the "reduced gear selector function" warning has caused the AWD to stop working...simply put, you have a very heavy FWD car...when it's working in AWD, it's great in the snow...but yours isn't working because of the solenoid input...fix that and see how the car drives...

Or better yet, step on the gas and spin the tires...I bet only the fronts are spinning...

[cmercon]

It's a 2002
I'm at work so I'll double check it when I get home tonight, I am certain it was working last I knew. Pretty savvy with cars, I'll scan it next week, but i think it's mechanical.
Correct me if I'm wrong the AWD system is 80% front and 20% rear So even if the rear wheels were inactive it would not be that big of a deal traction wise, I'd just have FWD. But I'm pretty sure its working.

[cmercon]

He said it's worse than his FWD 850
Doesn't make much sense

What doesn't make sense about this?

[KB3MMX]

Ok, let us know if it spins all 4 wheels, my bet is on the front two due to the malfunction warning.





.

[wgriswold]

I live in snow country in the Sierras. I don't have real snow tires but M/S all season tires and the 2003 XC does very well in the snow. As well as my 4x4 Suburban except for clearance. I once saw a 2001 or 2002 stuck in the berm at the end of the driveway with the rear tires stuck and spinning and the fronts doing nothing. I remember a thread years ago that blamed this behavior on the AWD system prior to Haldex. I am by no means an expert and my total contribution is the memory of that thread. Does anyone else remember that thread?

Ok, I found the thread. Here it is:

http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?9608-AWD-Problems&highlight=awd+tire+spinning

See post #9.

[handyandy]

But its 02 so it's all manual 4wheel drive is it not, only engaging the rear wheels when the front spin and the vehicle does not move and the VC engaging due to the difference in front to back speed.

I live in SK CANADA have massive amounts of snow and have no problems with my 01 xc

[shinola]

How new are the snow tires on the vehicle? I know at least with summer tires it can take a couple hundred miles for them to wear in and perform their best, could this potentially be the case with your snows?

[slione]

I found this video on YouTube. It would indicate that what is being experienced is consistent with the way the VC functions. It also illustrates the point wgriswold makes referencing post #9 in the other thread. So get the front wheels spinning enough in these situations and the rears should kick in eventually, I guess. Not an ideal system which is probably why it was redesigned for 2003.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSZVoBHv-vM

[ifnt420]

If gear selector function is reduced, could it cause confusion to the TCM giving too much torque off the line, hence the wheel spin?
Anyway, you definitely needs to have the codes read to make sure what exactly is wrong.

[cmercon]

I appreciate everyone's help, I think we may be onto something about too much off the line because this morning I just drove through the largest storm we have had this year. Once I got going everything went smooth, even up some nasty unplowed hills. I just fear if I had to stop for whatever reason on one of those hills I would not be able to start again. We'll see if I can make it up my driveway.

[cmercon]

How new are the snow tires on the vehicle? I know at least with summer tires it can take a couple hundred miles for them to wear in and perform their best, could this potentially be the case with your snows?

Only a couple hundred miles on them.

[JRL]

As much as I hate to say this, try winter mode (W)

[TrueBlue]

I found this video on YouTube. It would indicate that what is being experienced is consistent with the way the VC functions. It also illustrates the point wgriswold makes referencing post #9 in the other thread. So get the front wheels spinning enough in these situations and the rears should kick in eventually, I guess. Not an ideal system which is probably why it was redesigned for 2003.



The old VC does NOT engage until the vehicle is moving (exactly how much "moving", I don't know) I tied the car to a mature tree, made sure the grass in my field was wet then tried to drive away - gently then - not so. Front wheels span madly and the rears - zilch.
Attached the same tree and rope to an early XC90 - result was as you would expect.

Volvo UK kindly (?) gave me some money to "go away"

For some reason both paddles (or whatever) need to be spinning before the goo transmits any power.

[JRL]

With the V/C AWD the rear tires must turn at least 1- 7th of a rotation.
If the car isn't moving (ie: tied to a tree) it won't work.
Even early Haldex systems won't start until (I believe) 1-5th of a rotation. Not until 2006 and "instant traction was programed into the Haldex, will it then work immediately

[cmercon]

The old VC does NOT engage until the vehicle is moving (exactly how much "moving", I don't know) I tied the car to a mature tree, made sure the grass in my field was wet then tried to drive away - gently then - not so. Front wheels span madly and the rears - zilch.
Attached the same tree and rope to an early XC90 - result was as you would expect.

Volvo UK kindly (?) gave me some money to "go away"

For some reason both paddles (or whatever) need to be spinning before the goo transmits any power.

I guess that may be part of the answer.

[KB3MMX]

With the V/C AWD the rear tires must turn at least 1- 7th of a rotation.
If the car isn't moving (ie: tied to a tree) it won't work.
Even early Haldex systems won't start until (I believe) 1-5th of a rotation. Not until 2006 and "instant traction was programed into the Haldex, will it then work immediately

JRL, can "instant traction" be programmed into the 03-05 cars?



.

[JRL]

No

[wgriswold]

With the V/C AWD the rear tires must turn at least 1- 7th of a rotation.
If the car isn't moving (ie: tied to a tree) it won't work.
Even early Haldex systems won't start until (I believe) 1-5th of a rotation. Not until 2006 and "instant traction was programed into the Haldex, will it then work immediately

I think that explains what I saw. The car was backing out of a flat driveway and the rear tires were stuck in a small icy depression at the end of the driveway. The front tires were spinning on the snowy driveway but couldn't move the rear tires out of the depression so the rear tires were not rotating and thus no AWD. This was an 01 or 02. I have not experienced such behavior with my 03. If I had I wouldn't keep it.

I want AWD or 4x4 to get me going from a stop. Once I am going I don't have much use for it. When I had my 1980 DL I preferred it to my 4x4 truck once the vehicles were moving. The DL although only rear wheel drive tracked better and I felt more in control.

[n00bkiller944]

I hate to beat a dead horse but it sounds to me like you only have FWD right now. My 05 XC is great in the snow and my buddies 02 seems just as good to me. Take a closer look and I would bet you just have FWD.

[sjonnie]

The old VC does NOT engage until the vehicle is moving (exactly how much "moving", I don't know) I tied the car to a mature tree, made sure the grass in my field was wet then tried to drive away - gently then - not so. Front wheels span madly and the rears - zilch.
Then your AWD is broken. The AWD is always engaged, that's why it's called all wheel drive and not part-time 4-wheel drive. This is demonstrated in a functioning AWD system by putting the car on a lift, turning the front wheels causes the back wheels to spin. There is no lag, delay or warm up time. The correct functioning of a cold AWD system is quantifiable, lifting just 1 front wheel off the ground you will need about 20ft/lbs of torque to overcome the resistance from the viscous coupling. The viscous coupling warms up very quickly with different rotational speeds and will engage in real-world situations almost immediately - even from a dead stop. Reports of front wheels spinning while back wheels do nothing such as yours along with videos on YouTube are consistent with a malfunctioning AWD system and do not reflect the AWD capabilities of the car.

[sjonnie]

I think that explains what I saw. The car was backing out of a flat driveway and the rear tires were stuck in a small icy depression at the end of the driveway. The front tires were spinning on the snowy driveway but couldn't move the rear tires out of the depression so the rear tires were not rotating and thus no AWD. This was an 01 or 02.
I performed an almost exact replica just yesterday backing up a steep driveway, except this time the front wheels were in the icy depression and lost traction on the ice while the rears pulled the car up the hill.

[cmercon]

It just seems strange that even if if I only had FWD it would be so crappy in the snow as I have had nothing but good luck in the snow with 850's. Even if there is only FWD could these Arctic Claw tire just be a terrible snow tire.

[RallyGuy]

From my days with Mitsubishi, I saw a fair number of Turbo Eclipses that had burned out VCs and were FWD only. It was a common failure, especially with cars that were abused. Similar failure perhaps? Is the driveline brain smart enough to know when torque is not being transmitted through the coupling, or is it 100% passive?

-Adam

[billr99]

First winter with my recently purchased 2001 XC 70. 850 having 850's for the last few years I figured this XC would be a big improvement. Long story short, I have brand new Artic Claws on it and the AWD works just fine. However when I stop anywhere snowy (even on my lawn) I lose traction instantly. I have better traction with my 1990 Volvo 780!! I have heard nothing but amazing things about these in the snow and it seems like once it gets going its an unstoppable snow tank, but what is going on here with the start and stops, my wife's 850 has the same tires and I can get up the driveway no issue, my XC its a struggle.
Whats wrong with my beast?

Refer to my earlier response comparing my 200, 700, 800, V/S70 series cars to my XC. They aren't going to be radically different, IMHO; somewhat dependent upon chosen rubber. Perhaps you expected too much of a difference? Over the years I've had other brands of cars go thru snow pretty well and arguably better than the XC. There have been some RWD, FWD and AWD cars. Equally, there have been cars in the same categories that have been worse. For example, my last Audi Quattro ('93 90SQ) was way worse and it was running Blizzaks too. Exactly the opposite of a 4000SQ that I also ran Blizzaks on. Perhaps re-examing your needs in regard to this car might be worth your time and then making a change if called for.

Good luck,

Bill

[StuntmanMike]

I just had my '07 in the snow for the first time this past Saturday night.

We got about 4" of sloppy, wet snow. I took the XC out for a drive before the plows got out,and I have to say I was very impressed. I didn't have a hard time getting going, in fact I was heavy on the gas purposely to see how it would respond, and the car just dug in and took off.

Not only did the car itself feel very stable and surefooted in the snow, even on the unplowed highway at 40mph, but I felt secure being IN the car, knowing that if some idiot plowed into me I'd be well protected.

I honestly think that at least under these conditions, it's better in the snow than my Jeep. I think the stability and traction control aids help, whereas my Jeep doesn't have any of that. Just hit the gas and go when they stop spinning. Now when the snowfall hits double digits, THAT'S when the Jeep really comes into it's element.

Now my car does have brand new tires on it, but not sure how big a factor that is considering they're not snows. They're Conti Pro Contact Eco's in the 215/65/17 size.

[sanfelice]

I just had my '07 in the snow for the first time this past Saturday night.

We got about 4" of sloppy, wet snow. I took the XC out for a drive before the plows got out,and I have to say I was very impressed. I didn't have a hard time getting going, in fact I was heavy on the gas purposely to see how it would respond, and the car just dug in and took off.

Not only did the car itself feel very stable and surefooted in the snow, even on the unplowed highway at 40mph, but I felt secure being IN the car, knowing that if some idiot plowed into me I'd be well protected.

I honestly think that at least under these conditions, it's better in the snow than my Jeep. I think the stability and traction control aids help, whereas my Jeep doesn't have any of that. Just hit the gas and go when they stop spinning. Now when the snowfall hits double digits, THAT'S when the Jeep really comes into it's element.

Now my car does have brand new tires on it, but not sure how big a factor that is considering they're not snows. They're Conti Pro Contact Eco's in the 215/65/17 size.


same here with my new-to-me XC 04. I did put on some nearly new Altimax Arctic tires and was quite impressed, going up the steepest hill around here (maybe 15 degrees) in 4-5" of snow while still falling and the car did very well.

then again, I do know how to drive in snow quite well and always use snows on my cars. hell, even driving the old 965s on the highway in storms, I've never gone sideways (crossing fingers, so far).

[cheapo]

It just seems strange that even if if I only had FWD it would be so crappy in the snow as I have had nothing but good luck in the snow with 850's. Even if there is only FWD could these Arctic Claw tire just be a terrible snow tire.

The AWD on mine failed last winter (due to a faulty oil pressure/temp. sensor) and the car was useless in snow and the front wheels spun out frequently in the rain.

I think the amount of torque the transmission puts out needs to be spread over four wheels. When only two are being driven, the torque easily overcomes the front wheels' grip. Also, when the front wheels slip, the AWD computer expects the rear wheels to kick in and get the car moving (unlike some AWD systems that will brake the wheels that are spinning to regain traction).

[Thames]

My 05 XC goes well thru heavy snow, no problem at all. HOWEVER, the handling is not as good as my S70, more slippery and less stable. Tires are Nokian Hakkapelita 5, 50% used.

[Tahoe_XC]

Then your AWD is broken. The AWD is always engaged, that's why it's called all wheel drive and not part-time 4-wheel drive. This is demonstrated in a functioning AWD system by putting the car on a lift, turning the front wheels causes the back wheels to spin. There is no lag, delay or warm up time. The correct functioning of a cold AWD system is quantifiable, lifting just 1 front wheel off the ground you will need about 20ft/lbs of torque to overcome the resistance from the viscous coupling. The viscous coupling warms up very quickly with different rotational speeds and will engage in real-world situations almost immediately - even from a dead stop. Reports of front wheels spinning while back wheels do nothing such as yours along with videos on YouTube are consistent with a malfunctioning AWD system and do not reflect the AWD capabilities of the car.

I have an 01 with the V/C and just bought a 04 Haldex w 53k mi; we spend a lot of time in Tahoe. What a difference in the 04. Just had the 04 at the lake for the X-Mas dump (5 ft) and the following week of temperatures never greater than 28. The 01 could easily have been the vehicle wgriswold described in his post. With the exception of clearance I would pick the 04 over my Yukon any day as it has the performance i had hoped for when i bought the 01. Truth is I rarely bring my 01 to the mountains in the winter.

sjonnie, you have helped me in the past, still very much appreciated! Interested in regaining faith in the 01 AWD system and wanted to know your thoughts on what might be wrong with my (and others w similar issues). I have had the car in the air and all 4 turn, no codes, etc. I had just kind of written it off as AWD not the 4WD. What should I look at?

[pauldunlop22]

Good series of posts. We have some snow in Toronto and a couple of days ago I watched my neighbour trying to get traction in his Subaru Outback just the front wheels were spinning and he was going nowhere fast! My 02 XC is like a tank in snow. Never been stuck. I take great pleasure, when we do get a large dump of snow, to try to get out driving early when it is "fresh" and not driven on. It's real fun. and later it excels plowing through while others are stuck spinning their wheels.

[Seamus]

there is definitely something wrong with the car in that video. The AWD on our 01 works within a few seconds. During the snowstorm last week i had all 4 tires spinning from a dead stop in drive and reverse. Sounds like you have an awd problem. The tires in our XC are pretty much bald (and generic) and they can get it up a hill from a stop.

[Ars Gladius]

With the V/C AWD the rear tires must turn at least 1- 7th of a rotation.
If the car isn't moving (ie: tied to a tree) it won't work.
Even early Haldex systems won't start until (I believe) 1-5th of a rotation. Not until 2006 and "instant traction was programed into the Haldex, will it then work immediately
JRL, can "instant traction" be programmed into the 03-05 cars?

As JRL said, no, you're SOL.

It is because there is a mechanical difference between the generations of Haldex couplings. There is no 'software' switch that allows it to be enabled. They changed the way the clutch pack gets its initial hydraulic pressure to operate when they engineered the instant traction feature.