Effects of prolonged cold engine idling?

[winnipegtibook]

I am one day away from getting a remote car starter put in, but thought I'd ask my fellow volvo owners if they have any thoughts on "cold engine idiling."

I should mention I am from the Canadian prairies, where -30ish is kinda normal around here. Both cars are not garaged in the winter (not built yet).

Thoughts?

[Leto Atreides II]

That sounds like a situation where an engine block heater would be a good idea.

[Adrian]

You do get original Volvo heaters for these cars. Like on newer diesel-cars, but Volvo has this for both diesel and petrol-XCs. I don't know the price of these, tho.

[billr99]

Well beyond the obvious waste of a fair amount of gas, prolonged idling in extremely low temps will increase the production of acids in the oil that occur as part of the combustion processes. These in turn will require you to change your oil more frequently and another plus as far as Big Oil is concerned. If you have AC outlets around town like they do in some towns in Northern ON, it is a wise suggestion for the installation of a block heater. When I lived in North Bay, I never had one on my Volvos because I didn't need to idle long but when I had my Range Rover with that big aluminum V8 the block heater was a god-send, especially at -40 (both F and C).

Cheers,

Bill

[Astro14]

As a former resident of your fair city at the confluence of the Red and Assiniboine rivers, I sympathise with your cold weather question.

Most modern cars recommend against prolonged warm-ups for exactly the reason BillR99 stated. I would idle it for about 30 seconds to ensure that there is good oil flow through the turbo before driving gently to warm it up.

I strongly recommend a block heater. Had one on my '94 850 Wagon in Vermont - very worthwhile. Used to start right up in -25F and warm up in less than a mile.

I also strongly recommend synthetic oil. Lots of good brands - 5W30 for your temperature range...if you want to read all sorts of good information on oil, check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ I'll summarize by saying you can't go wrong with Mobil 1 (especially the 0W30) or Pennzoil Ultra....though I am not sure what products are available north of the border.

Cheers,

[winnipegtibook]

Thank everyone (especially Bill). I have a block heater in both volvos but was contemplating the starters to make the frigid mornings a little more bearable (and considering that one car gets parked on a street). I guess a 75ft extension cord will be the trick!

[gpzTurbo]

It's a well built car. I'd find it very hard to believe that remote starting it and letting it warm up for a few minutes before driving it were detrimental to its health. The modern remote start systems even have timers built in so you don't forget (or trigger it accidantally) and leave the car running all day. Mine shuts itself off after 15 minutes if I haven't gotten in and driven away.

One of my other vehicles (with a ford v8) has been remotely started its whole life and still gets driven daily with over 230k miles on the original engine.

oh, and driving the car uses the most fuel. An idling engine uses very little, especially for the small amount of time you're talking about.

[billr99]

It's a well built car. I'd find it very hard to believe that remote starting it and letting it warm up for a few minutes before driving it were detrimental to its health. The modern remote start systems even have timers built in so you don't forget (or trigger it accidantally) and leave the car running all day. Mine shuts itself off after 15 minutes if I haven't gotten in and driven away.

One of my other vehicles (with a ford v8) has been remotely started its whole life and still gets driven daily with over 230k miles on the original engine.

oh, and driving the car uses the most fuel. An idling engine uses very little, especially for the small amount of time you're talking about.

Has nothing to do with the quality of the engine, it has to do with chemistry and physics. Combustion produces blow-by even in a new engine and these blow-by gases combine with the various elements in the crankcase to produce acids which are then held in the oil. The oil, in turn, circulates this stuff throughout the engine. The reason you didn't notice any bad effects in a Ford is, just like any of the domestic V8s, their operating tolerances are not as tight owing to there lower levels of mechanical efficiency. Basically, it takes a lot more internal corrosion and wear to notice any loss of power whereas in a more efficient design a similar percentage loss of efficiency would be more noticeable.

As far as using gas, idling produce a big fat zero miles per gallon (and 0 efficiency), plus all the resulting pollutants associated with cold engine operation. Generally that's just a bad idea for all concerned these days and it really didn't make much sense in the "good ole days" either. That's why the US (and Canada too) finds itself in the shape it's in now because Big Oil and the Arabs just love people idling their cars and being inefficient.

In any case, with a modern Volvo motor it is full warm, even in -30C weather, in less than 3 miles or so, so it isn't a big deal to just start em up and take off, albeit slowly to allow time for the rest of the mechanical bits to warm up. Remember -30 to -40C is something that most places in the States don't ever see. As I learned when I moved to Canada from Ohio, it takes a bit of knowledge and some new habits to know how to take care of a car in extreme cold.

Cheers,

Bill

[Aviator]

As far as using gas, idling produce a big fat zero miles per gallon (and 0 efficiency)

You took the words right out of my keyboard, Bill!! The engine will warm up faster by driving it and putting a load on it than it will sitting there idling (that's where you'll go through a lot of gas). Plus, as Bill said in as many words, idling in deep cold is a major factor in sludge formation. A block heater is the best way to go, and will help your engine live longer.

Dave.

[Japedo]

You took the words right out of my keyboard, Bill!! The engine will warm up faster by driving it and putting a load on it than it will sitting there idling (that's where you'll go through a lot of gas). Plus, as Bill said in as many words, idling in deep cold is a major factor in sludge formation. A block heater is the best way to go, and will help your engine live longer.

Dave.

I agree with bill on the oil acid build up. But on another token, isn't their increased engine wear if you simply start the car and immediatley put it into drive in extremely cold weather? Metal shrinks when it's cold and expand's when it's hot. And if the Volvo's have even less tolarences within the engine then domestics, wouldn't this be more so of a factor?
I usually let my engine idle for 3 to 5 minutes before shifting into drive during extremely cold weather, usually the period of time it takes to scrape the ice and frost off the windows and lights. I also have block heaters on my vehicles.
Warming an engine before putting the engine under load is extremley important with snowmobiles both 2 and 4 stroke. Ive rebuilt engines in snowmobiles that were not properly warmed up and cold scuff patterns on the pistons were easily visible. I know this is a poor example, but they are still internall combustion engines so some of the principle must apply.

Curtis

[billr99]

I agree with bill on the oil acid build up. But on another token, isn't their increased engine wear if you simply start the car and immediatley put it into drive in extremely cold weather? Metal shrinks when it's cold and expand's when it's hot. And if the Volvo's have even less tolarences within the engine then domestics, wouldn't this be more so of a factor?
I usually let my engine idle for 3 to 5 minutes before shifting into drive during extremely cold weather, usually the period of time it takes to scrape the ice and frost off the windows and lights. I also have block heaters on my vehicles.
Warming an engine before putting the engine under load is extremley important with snowmobiles both 2 and 4 stroke. Ive rebuilt engines in snowmobiles that were not properly warmed up and cold scuff patterns on the pistons were easily visible. I know this is a poor example, but they are still internall combustion engines so some of the principle must apply.

Curtis
Absolutely. That is why using oil of the correct weight, and more ideally syn oil, is so important in extreme temperatures. Having seen it myself, 10w30 dino oil is thicker than honey at -40 whereas syn oil thickens only slightly. And it seems to take forever for the dino to even flow a bit at that temp. What I use to do was to start the car and then put my belts up before I put it into gear. That gave it a bit for the engine oil to circulate as well as the gearbox lube. Than a easy go for the first mile or so before I hit the highway. Of course, my route kind of forced the process that way. Never really had any problems and all my Volvos that I had in North Bay lasted a good while and were in great shape drivetrain-wise when I got rid of them.

Admittedly my Range Rover didn't fair so well. Even with syn oil, the thing sounded like it had rocks in the crankcase for the first couple of minutes at -40. Eventually, and fortunately when it was no longer in my hands, the car lost the bottom end. I can't say it was entirely the cold weather as I think even today that the bottom end of that particular motor was weak before I even got the truck. Sure could go thru snow though.

Cheers,

Bill

[Japedo]

speaking of engine noise. We recently baught a 2007 Nissan Altima, seems like a great little car. But when it is below zero the 2.5L 4banger really is quite loud untill it warms up. Not valvetrain loud, but loud.
Ive witnessed it in many japenese engines though, but never in a volvo.

[JRL]

speaking of engine noise. We recently baught a 2007 Nissan Altima, seems like a great little car. But when it is below zero the 2.5L 4banger really is quite loud untill it warms up. Not valvetrain loud, but loud.
Ive witnessed it in many japenese engines though, but never in a volvo.

Piston slap
Older Subies are notorious for this

[Japedo]

Piston slap
Older Subies are notorious for this

Probably right, it's only noticeable while revving the engine when it's cold and dissapears after 2k rpm.
At idle it sounds ok when cold, and a few minutes of warming up and the noise isn't their when u rev the engine.

[sjonnie]

I run my car on two oils, both synthetic: 0W30 during the winter, 0W40 during the summer. If it's freezing, warm the car up for a few minutes to get the oil circulating, but that 0W syn oil gets moving pretty quickly so it's not necessary to idle long. If you start it and then scrape the ice and snow off it'll be good to go. If you experience temps below -20C an engine block heater is highly recommended to warm up the oil so it starts flowing sooner.

http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1990/April/02.html

[ycmike]

We have 4 Volvos in the family and live in Calgary, where it can get really cold.
I've found that starting up the engines and letting them idle for a minimal amount of time then driving right away seems to make them warm up more quickly than just sitting there running.
I think most owner's manuals discourage excessive idling as well.
I've also equipped all our cars with oil pan heaters which keeps the dino oil warm and allows for a nice easy start.
Takes the cabin heater a bit longer to work than a car with a coolant (block) heater, but there's not that much of a difference.

[Q-ship]

I think the turbos are the item most affected by cold starts. That's why you are not supposed to hop in an "punch it". It's the only part of the engine spinning at close to of 2x any other engine component.
I think the "put belts on" timeframe is adequate to get the oil flowing, then easing into driving letting the car warm up.

(this parts for my wife..)and for the love of Pete, keep the heater off. The car gets to warm up first, then you do. Turn on the seat heaters, and when the thermostat lets the temp guage rise a little..then you can have heat.

[ycmike]

Good luck with the wife thing!
They think if they turn the temp up to 90 and leave it there it will warm up the cabin faster- I notice that at home with the thermostat too.

[John@CdnRockies]

As Bill suggests, synthetic oil and block heaters are the way to go. Our Volvo is Calgary based with 200,000 km and still going strong.

As an interesting aside, the 1st Rolls Royce shipped to Winnipeg needed to have a block heater installed (this is >35 years ago). Their Chief Mechanic said it broke his heart to drill into a brand new block and install a Canadian Tire block heater!;) I was just a lowly auditor but he was still shaking his head for months afterwards! Sure hope they have that option nowadays ...

John

[winnipegtibook]

Thank you all - decision is made. And it saved me a pile of $$$!

[Seamus]

Q-ship,
Does your wife know that if you turn the temp up and hit auto it'll turn the heat on as the car warms up? I like that feature a lot.

Seamus

[sjonnie]

I think the turbos are the item most affected by cold starts. That's why you are not supposed to hop in an "punch it". It's the only part of the engine spinning at close to of 2x any other engine component.
I agree you shouldn't hop in and punch it. Oil pressure builds very quickly in a warm or cold engine the trouble is in the cold engine oil flow is much lower than in the hot one. However, cold start wear isn't caused by lack of lucubration, it's mostly caused by condensation / acid formation. While the turbo is an obvious place to expect condensation to form, it's probably the fastest to heat up. The turbo is a relatively small amount of metal compared to the block & head and is exposed to the heat from all 5 cylinders meaning it will warm up much faster than the rest of the engine. It is the cylinder walls and head that are most affected by cold starts. Moisture from the combustion condenses out and dissolves nitrous gasses forming acid which corrodes the metal. There's no preventing this, it's a feature of cold starts which you can't avoid, however the sooner the oil gets to the top of the engine and neutralizes those acids the less corrosion will occur. That's why a synthetic 0W30 oil will give you better engine protection than a 5W30 or a 10W30, oil gets to the cold parts of the engine faster.

[thebracko]

I am one day away from getting a remote car starter put in,...

Sounds like I'm a little late, but I (and Volvo) highly recommend NOT installing remote starters in 99+ Volvo's. We recently had a brand new XC90 have a remote start installed that took out the network in the vehicle and required a $500-600 in repairs, plus removal of the remote start. PITA

[Q-ship]

however the sooner the oil gets to the top of the engine and neutralizes those acids the less corrosion will occur

exactly!, the sooner you get warmed up the sooner the acids get burned alive (neutralized) And the fastest way to warm up is to drive (gently). My commute is 4 mi, so I get to do 3K changes....because I only get to "killing temps" on the weekend.

Seamus, yes my car's no problem. But her Odyssey will blow air full blast on auto. Having the heat turn on when there actually is heat is a great feature, and in my mind aids longevity greatly (faster warm ups to operating temp)