Looking at an '02 XC

[ClimbingRockDawg]

Hello,

I'm brand new to the site and am hoping to get some input on a '02 XC I may buy. My wife and I just sold our Subaru WRX wagon with many mods and now need to replace it with another AWD car. The XC seems like a perfect fit for us because we are a growing family who loves to get off the beaten path, and we road trip long distances as a family. We've test driven many XC's from '99-'02, as those are the years that seem to be in our price range. After looking for some time we have found an '02 we think we want to buy. The dealer provided us with the carfax and it looks as though it has been well maintained. The car has 84,000 miles on it and has had the dealer do all the regularly scheduled service.

I have a few concerns though. The car still has the factory tranny, but it felt fine on the test drive, although we only drove it for about twenty minutes. After reading on this site about techs adding fluid through the wrong bolt hole, I have to think that some of the tranny failures with this model come from service errors. Any input there?

Also, according to the carfax, the car has had the 'Turbocharger oil seal" replaced four times! Is this something that should alarm me?


We sold the WRX because it was getting up there in miles, 177,000, and we felt that it was going to need a lot of money poured into it. Are we trading one high up-keep vehicle for another?

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[JRL]

02' are not much better than 01's
They have the old VC AWD system and pretty much the same (bad) tranny as 2001s do.
You should try to look for an 03-04.

If the one I have for sale (in the classifieds) in your price range you should contact me.
I can pretty well guarantee you that my 04 is light years better than the 02 you are looking at!

If it's more than you want to spend I still say you should try to find an 03-04They're just better cars, not to mention the fact they have the 2.5T which is a much nicer engine than the 2.4T and an upgraded valve body in the transmission.
Or you may want to consider my 99 also in the classifieds. This is THE nicest GEN1 XC you will find anywhere and of course cheaper.

[ClimbingRockDawg]

Well, got back from the presale inspection of the car at the Volvo dealership. On the way over there I felt it downshift kinda hard and it took the tech exactly two minutes to tell us he was 100% sure we needed at least a new valve body and possibly a whole new transmission. Needless to say we are not buying the car. Pretty bummed out. Will have to keep looking.

JRL, your cars look nice, but I live in Colorado, so I don't think it will work out.

[KazDog]

02' are not much better than 01's
They have the old VC AWD system and pretty much the same (bad) tranny as 2001s do.
You should try to look for an 03-04.

If the one I have for sale (in the classifieds) in your price range you should contact me.
I can pretty well guarantee you that my 04 is light years better than the 02 you are looking at!

If it's more than you want to spend I still say you should try to find an 03-04They're just better cars, not to mention the fact they have the 2.5T which is a much nicer engine than the 2.4T and an upgraded valve body in the transmission.
Or you may want to consider my 99 also in the classifieds. This is THE nicest GEN1 XC you will find anywhere and of course cheaper.
I do not agree. This poll http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13371 shows 75% 2001-2002 cars with fully functioning trannies. I'm willing to bet taking the 2001 cars out of the poll would result in an even higher percentage of good trannies. 2004 and newer XC's definitely have improvements but if it comes down to cost I would still recommend a 2002. My pre-haldex transmission works just fine in snowy conditions.

[sjonnie]

On the way over there I felt it downshift kinda hard and it took the tech exactly two minutes to tell us he was 100% sure we needed at least a new valve body and possibly a whole new transmission.
Probably a wise move. However, lots of things can cause harsh shifting though without necessarily indicating a new transmission is needed. New fluid can work wonders, clean off the fuzz from the magnetic drain bolt and install an inline filter and maybe cooler and your transmission can be good as new again.The '01-'02 transmissions can have hard 2-3 or 3-2 shifts if the B4 servo cover is worn. Easy replacement. Additionally, worn torque struct / engine mounts can lead to harsh N-D & N-R shifts. If you're buying a car from a dealer lot one would hope they would take care of these things before you buy :rolleyes: - yeah right.

[JRL]

I do not agree. This poll http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13371 shows 75% 2001-2002 cars with fully functioning trannies. I'm willing to bet taking the 2001 cars out of the poll would result in an even higher percentage of good trannies. 2004 and newer XC's definitely have improvements but if it comes down to cost I would still recommend a 2002. My pre-haldex transmission works just fine in snowy conditions.

...and this poll was what, less than 2000 owners out of a 100,000 or so?
EVERY DAY they're replacing trannies in 01s and 02s (and XC90 T6s) at our dealership and that's only ONE dealership out of 350 or so.

You will lose your bet

To the OP, I just sold a car to someone from Portland OR.

[billr99]

...and this poll was what, less than 2000 owners out of a 100,000 or so?
EVERY DAY they're replacing trannies in 01s and 02s (and XC90 T6s) at our dealership and that's only ONE dealership out of 350 or so.

You will lose your bet

To the OP, I just sold a car to someone from Portland OR.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old tune. Prove it with real facts not just an extension of your unsubstantiated experience. Using your logic, the poll would be just as valid as the numbers you speak to.

I'm not questioning the facts that the AW tranny is not the greatest in Volvo's interpretation and that Volvo's recommended lack of servicing is a contributing factor to some failures. But I have yet to see real, hard facts backed up by real numbers that indicate that a high percentage of the aforementioned model years have a grenade ready to go off. So far all I've seen is someone shouting something about the bogeyman.

Cheers,

Bill

[JRL]

I don't have to prove Jack Sh*t to you, I see them in the dealership EVERY FRIGGEN DAY.
Bunches and buches of 01s and some 02 getting tranny replacements.
Sure, if Volvo said to change the fluid every 30K it would have eliminated 60-70% of them BUT THEY DID NOT. and THEY FAIL
The 2001 OEM stop neutral also was a real winner, contributing to probably 50%+ of the failures.

My moonlighting mechanic calls me at least once a week and says "sorry, can't come over, doing a trans and it will be too late".

Almost all are 2001s and 2002s with the occational 04-05 XC90T6 thrown in their tranny is as bad or worse than 01 S60s and V70s

[billr99]

I don't have to prove Jack Sh*t to you, I see them in the dealership EVERY FRIGGEN DAY.
Bunches and buches of 01s and some 02 getting tranny replacements.
Sure, if Volvo said to change the fluid every 30K it would have eliminated 60-70% of them BUT THEY DID NOT. and THEY FAIL
The 2001 OEM stop neutral also was a real winner, contributing to probably 50%+ of the failures.

My moonlighting mechanic calls me at least once a week and says "sorry, can't come over, doing a trans and it will be too late".

Almost all are 2001s and 2002s with the occational 04-05 XC90T6 thrown in their tranny is as bad or worse than 01 S60s and V70s

"Bunches and bunches" don't mean real numbers. You keep records? How many actual, real failed trannies over, say, the last 3 years? Not hyperbole, real, actual numbers. And let's say that is out of how may total units within the affected years?

And yeah, this is the friggin internet and you don't have to prove jack sh&t. That's the major problem, isn't it? Everybody is a friggin expert just because they can twiddle the keys on a keyboard. Spare me.

[jda2000]

OK boys settle down, no need to fight, lets be civilized.

We are here to learn how to help each other and keep these sweede beauties running.:rolleyes:

[JRL]

Fine I will ask my dealer how many they have done in the past couple of years

[billr99]

Fine I will ask my dealer how many they have done in the past couple of years

Excellent! Hard numbers produce facts. I don't dispute the issue. I'm just interested in how big the breadbox is.

Thanks,

Bill

[Aviator]

Fine I will ask my dealer how many they have done in the past couple of years

Post the document so you're less likely to lie or inflate the numbers.:D

Dave.

[JRL]

There won't be any documents, however since you just made that a-hole remark, commenting on my veracity, I'm not going to even bother asking them!

[billr99]

There won't be any documents, however since you just made that a-hole remark, commenting on my veracity, I'm not going to even bother asking them!

Yeah, can't be bother with facts now, can we?

Try not being such a duffus about it and prove what you are saying with hard evidence or just back off with the "doom and gloom". As I said, I don't dipute the idea that there is a high level of tranny failures amongst '01-02 Volvo. The poll on this site puts that rate at somewhere around 26%, but such pools are skewed toward a negative due to its audience and the orientation of those most likely to answer. That is, those with failures are more likely to respond than those that haven't experienced that issue. On the other hand, one could argue that on an enthusiast site it is possible that there is a concerted effort to paint the brand positively, hence skewing the poll conversely. So averaging it out and for the sake of argument, let's call 26% in the ballpark.

So a 26 percent failure rate over a range of mileage (0 to whatever), is probably higher than normal but not the "bunches and bunches" as JRL's comments would seemed to allude to. So what's real? For that matter, given an "average" brand what could one reasonably expect as a normal failure rate over a similar range of mileages? Well, the problem is that nobody knows anything here because we aren't seeing real, hard numbers and we aren't seeing knowledge that is broad-based geographically or across the industry. We aren't going to get them from Volvo and I, for one, can't think that any one particular dealer's numbers would be representative either. There are a fair number of XCs out there since that model is arguably Volvo's best seller. So we are seeing an extremely small, and vocal, sampling out of a good size total number.

Perhaps in the end this discussion has become hopelessly religious with no way of knowing a real number because the one sole source of reasonably good information isn't talking (i.e. Volvo). So we are left with a cloud of BS or we can attempt to use this forum as such forums are intended and that is to share reasonable information with a goal to positively reinforce the brand/model and to help fellow owners out with their ownership.

Cheers,

Bill

[dfuerst]

Well, count me as a 2001 owner who originally posted negative (tranny fine). Problem is, last summer it kicked, and I had to replace it. So, add one more AW to the crapper.

It's one thing to intelligently point out the deficiencies of a polling method. Every method has it's limitations.

However, it's quite another to stick your head in the sand and scream "EVERYTHING'S FINE! GO AWAY"

The tranny in the 01's and some 02's is a complete piece of crap. If it's so good, why did they change it?

[billr99]

Well, count me as a 2001 owner who originally posted negative (tranny fine). Problem is, last summer it kicked, and I had to replace it. So, add one more AW to the crapper.

It's one thing to intelligently point out the deficiencies of a polling method. Every method has it's limitations.

However, it's quite another to stick your head in the sand and scream "EVERYTHING'S FINE! GO AWAY"

The tranny in the 01's and some 02's is a complete piece of crap. If it's so good, why did they change it?

That's why real numbers are needed to prove the reality and to get out of the religious discussion that has no value.

Apparently the AW tranny is fine considering how long Volvo used it and the experience of all the other manufacturers using the same basic unit. What was crap was Volvo's software controls and their recommended service intervals. But then again, real information would point to the actual issues and their causes if we could get our hands on that and have some meaningful analysis of that data.

Cheers,

Bill

[dfuerst]

I'll repeat this: if it's so good, why did they change it?

[lexefx]

Lets remeber that we serve as a reference document for all of time for those who browse.

If your interested in an early p2 car - I hope you've done your dillegence. Jim is trying to help people make choices they will be happier with. If you disagree with him, your entitled - does he need to produced facts to back his statment up?

Sure if the requester and reuested have nothing to do with their time.
This is troll behavior, and we're all surley above that.

Think trees not leaves, and have a good rest of your day!

Lex

[JRL]

Jim is trying to help people make choices they will be happier with. If you disagree with him, your entitled - does he need to produced facts to back his statment up?


Adding to this.
I will NOT buy any 2001 (automatics) S60 or V70 and most 02s anymore, just not worth it.
Out of the 8-10 2001's I have bought, two had bad trannies when I bought them, one known, (and was priced accordingly) one unknown:mad:
Out of the rest, 3 of them had issues within a year of my selling them.
That's a pretty poor percentage considering most of them had well under 80K and 2 had under 50K miles at the time!
Out of the 5-6 02s I have bought, two had bad trannies when bought, one was replaced by the auction (they were not too happy about that but that's what post sale inspections are for, they passed it so they had to replace it), and another went bad within 4 monthsand luckily the buyer bought a warranty.
Again, not too good a percentage
Not all these cars were XC's some were V70s and S60s which should not be subject ot quite as much strain as an AWD will get.
Remember I knowingly try to buy very nice cars and almost every single one of these were very nice Volvos (except for the tranny issues)

[billr99]

Adding to this.
I will NOT buy any 2001 (automatics) S60 or V70 and most 02s.
Out of the 8-10 I have bought, two had bad trannies when I bought them, one known, (priced accordingly) one unknown:mad:
Out of the rest, 3 of them had issues within a year of my selling them.
That's a pretty poor percentage considering most of them had well under 80K and some under 50K miles!
Out of the 5-6 02s I have bought, two had bad trannies when bought, one was replaced by the auction (they were not too happy about that but that's what post sale inspections are for, they passed it so they had to replace it), and another went bad within 4 monthsand luckily the buyer bought a warranty.
Again, not too good a percentage
Remember I knowingly try to buy very nice cars.
Almost everyone of these were very nice XC's (except for the tranny issues)

JRL, thanks for those numbers. Roughly speaking then, those percentages match reasonably close to what the poll is showing. That is, out of every 4 units out there, 1 and a bit more are going to have tranny problems and that will probably occur within the first 80-90K miles. And that is for decently nice cars (assuming that those who answered the pool were caring owners) Now add in all those soccer moms and business dweebs that just drive a car until the wheels fall off with little, if any real maintenance. Those that would know nothing of these forums, etc. That is, the bad cars that end up at the back of the yard at the auction. Interesting.

Thanks,

Bill

[sjonnie]

My 2cents :D

I've had my '02 for 2yrs nearly, bought it at 120K, it's now at 155K. Six months after I got it I was convinced (from reading this forum and others) that I was going to have to replace the transmission. I flushed the transmission with Mobil 3309 almost as soon as I bought it (fluid was dark brown) but still it was banging into and out of D / R and hesitating / revving on certain gear changes, I bet if the dealer had been allowed near it they would have wanted to replace the entire transmission.

Several flushes later and the addition of a transmission cooler and inline filter, it changes gear much more smoothly (touch wood [cool2]). No banging, no revving, only the 2-3 shift is slightly bumpy at times which could be the B4 servo cover, haven't gotten around to replacing that part yet. If the temp will drop below 90F outside I"ll get on it. Point is, I wonder how many transmissions get replaced out of dealer eagerness to get work rather than actually doing maintenance work on the transmission that could solve problems. I'm not saying my experience isn't lucky or anecdotal, it is, but like all things on the car, regular TLC goes a long way.

Personally I think the excessive heat in the Volvo engine bay and the amount of slip-lock in these transmissions leads to much faster degradation of the fluid than Volvo anticipated. I notice people on here suggesting changes of the fluid as often as 20K mi, which is very rapid degradation. My fluid still looks like new after 10K mi which is good, I'll keep checking it and see how it holds up, maybe a UOA at 20K mi would be a good plan. Now that Mobil have a synthetic ATF that meets the requirements of these transmissions I'd be interested to see if that holds up any better.

[JRL]

Read again
It was more like 6 out of 10 01's I had were bad or went bad soon thereafter
60% which to me sounds about right

[billr99]

Read again
It was more like 6 out of 10 01's I had were bad or went bad soon thereafter
60% which to me sounds about right

Ah, the hell with it. In either case, the failure rate is way too high. Time for me to go back to Land Rovers where the biggest question is if you have enough axle articulation without the shocks pulling apart.

Cheers,

Bill

[ClimbingRockDawg]

We are still looking and have not given up hope that we will find a well cared for car within our price range. This site has been a great resource in helping us look for potential issues when evaluating the cars. I wish we could spend a little bit more and bump up to the '03-04 years but we are not willing to finance a used car.
JRL, those numbers don't exactly make me feel good about our chances though. The one thing we have on our side is a trustworthy shop here locally where we can bring any potential buys before we make a purchase.

[JRL]

Well good luck and PLEASE be VERY careful with your purchase.
I would still recommend a GOOD Gen 1, (98-00) over any 01-02 Volvo

[ClimbingRockDawg]

The wife is going to take a look at a '99 and '00 a dealer has on their lot today. If she likes either one, we'll get it checked out, and with any luck pick one of them up.

[TTDAD]

Not sure I would recommend. I have an '02 that I bought from my mother-in-law with 38K. Now has 80k and here's what is wrong with it:
- Needs new front wheel hubs
- Shifter will not engage in cold weather - stuck in park until it warms up
- Currently at shop to determine problem with engine lag going uphill, etc. (could be plugs, coils, O2 sensors, Cat, not sure yet
- Cooling fan will run for extended periods after the car is turned off
- Burning oil (synthetic)

[JayPinNC]

It's unavoidable in forums like this, but after reading this today it immediately made me think of the AW transmission 'debate':

Confirmation Bias

The Misconception: Your opinions are the result of years of rational, objective analysis.


The Truth: Your opinions are the result of years of paying attention to information which confirmed what you believed while ignoring information which challenged your preconceived notions.

[sjonnie]

Not sure I would recommend. I have an '02 that I bought from my mother-in-law with 38K. Now has 80k and here's what is wrong with it
Remember, a car that is 8 or so years old will always need some work doing.

Needs new front wheel hubs
Fairly common replacement item on many cars

Shifter will not engage in cold weather - stuck in park until it warms up
Lubricate the park release solenoid

Currently at shop to determine problem with engine lag going uphill, etc. (could be plugs, coils, O2 sensors, Cat, not sure yet
Check turbo hoses, the link between the turbo and plastic pipe deteriorates rapidly due to the high heat in that area. 30K max for plugs.

Cooling fan will run for extended periods after the car is turned off
Can be normal behavior in warm weathre but cooling system check is probably advisable

Burning oil (synthetic)
Blue smoke is coming from the tailpipe? You need a PCV service. Otherwise if oil is just disappearing more likely than not it's leaking out of your shot turbo pipe connector :eek:

Most of these are minor maintenance items, fix 'em up and she'll be good to go! [thumbup]

[ClimbingRockDawg]

Well, we took the plunge. Picked up a '99 with 110,000 miles, black with black leather interior. Both the body and interior are in great shape. We had it checked out before we bought it, and while it does need some work, nothing glaring was brought to our attention. Just got it back from the shop today, where it had the tranny flushed, an engine mount repaired, and of course the oil changed. She's running like a champ and the air conditioner is blowing ice cold. Which has been great since it has been in the upper nineties lately. [thumbup][thumbup] The car still could use some more things done but nothing is really pressing.

We had to wheel and deal at the dealership, and since we had estimates for all the work the garage thought it should have done, we settled on $5450 plus taxes. We thought this was a pretty good deal and it was well within our price range even after making the necessary repairs.

The family is stoked and can't wait to go on a road trip.

Thanks for all the input.

[lexefx]

Have you checked the ATF condition yet?

Lex

[Aviator]

Just got it back from the shop today, where it had the tranny flushed,

Dave.

[marcinrudzki]

ClimbingRockDawg,

Where did you get the tranny flushed and how much was it if you don't mind me asking?

Thank you,
Martin