Stop-Neutral Control : One More Time Please ! [Archive]

jcb02

05-09-2008, 08:05 AM

Please don't scream "NOT AGAIN" ! I am new to this forum and this is my first post. As the original owner of a 2001 XC with 41,000 miles, I have been in panic mode for the last week after learning on this forum of the trans woes on the 01-02's, and the general consensus that the stop-neutral control is a major player. I have tried to read as many posts as I can, but it seems virtually impossible to catch them all. So please give me a little slack if I inadvertently ask a few often repeated questions.
Just a brief history. As with all my other Volvos, I do all the maintenance myself once out of the warranty period. I've had just a few minor performance blitches over the years with this XC and it would be a stretch to blame them on the trans, which seems to be fine. I've never changed the oil ( which shows darker on the dipstick than I would like), so two cases of Mobil 3309 are on the way. (Haven't quite decided on whether to go with the "Gibbons" method or drain and refill 5-6 times - just something about pumping some air through the system that makes me hesitate.) As to software, there is no record of a TCM download, only the one for the throttle body. I've tried using methods noted in several posts to verify that neutral control is in fact functioning, but in the end it's still not very obvious to me one way or the other. ( I'll describe my methods if someone requests.)
Finally, my question ! Does anyone know or would like to recommend the SPECIFIC software to download? I have talked generally to the service managers at the two local dealers and they are both in the $150-200 range to check what software is in the TCM and download the the latest update. While the actual techs who do this are hopefully competent, neither of these two guys made me feel very confident in what was required. Also, the price seems way too high. Several posts reference software part # 30677036. I subscribe to the ALLDATA online system, and it shows this part number as the download in tech bulletin NO: 43-38, dated 2-9-2006, specific to MY 2001/02. This bulletin describes symptoms of problems with "neutral control" and says to download to correct them. But nowhere does it say HOW the software achieves this, i.e., does it eliminate the function entirely or somehow soften its operation? Note that the labor time to download shows 0.3 hrs and does not require resetting adaption parameters which tells me no road testing is required. Another bulletin that ALLDATA shows and may apply is NO: 40-02, dated 2-12-2007. This applies to MY's 1999/2007. The software part # is not given, and adaption zeroing followed by a test drive is required, adding additional labor time to the o.3 hrs download time.
Bottom line, I want to get the stop-neutral removed, but I want to do it as economically as possible. As I'm not experiencing any symptoms, I'm not comfortable just giving it to them and letting them "have their way".
Sorry for my long-winded first post - will try to do better in the future. Your comments please.

howardc64

05-09-2008, 08:50 AM

Here is the order I would do this

1. Flush the tranny per Gibbon's method. Don't worry about air in the system. If you unplug the cooler return line at the top of your radiator, it won't leak which means there is already air in the system and not a problem. It is hard to get the fluid level right so Gibbon's measure what you get out to pour the same back in is a good way. Oh and pour it in slow. The fluids backs up quickly and spill from the fill/measure tube easily. Leave your belly pan dropped and take a look per quart if you like. I made a little mess due to filling too fast my first time.

2. Take it to the dealer to get your TCM software updated. Ask them the PN for the latest update. My 01 V70 T5 and 01 XC70 had the same PN 30677036 updated on 1/06 and 9/06 respectively. Stop neutral is disabled along with a noticeable different shift profile on my T5 (not so much on the XC it seems). This transmission is under software control. Volvo seems to have reprogrammed it quite a bit from what I can on my T5. If the dealer need to perform adaptation (teach the newly loaded software to properly adapt to your particular tranny mechanical condition for smooth shifts, this was quoted as a 1.5 hour job btw), then it would be done with your new fluids in there rather than the old. Dealer didn't do adaptation for me and I had no problems afterwards, cost was 1/2 hour labor + $36 for software so under $100.

I recall it was obvious stop neutral was removed on my T5 after the update. Basically, the car vibrated more at a stop because the tranny didn't shift to neutral. The XC was much less noticeable. I couldn't tell the difference before and after. Bought the XC used the previous owner's records had no TCM update.

After this, you can decide if you want to take on

- b4 servo cover (maybe no worries if you have no failing symptoms)
- install a magnafine filter for a piece of mind.

Here is a bunch of links + info I've collected. Good luck

http://www.freewebs.com/howardsvolvos/driveline.htm

JRL

05-09-2008, 02:23 PM

You should ALWAYS do the adaption process when installing new software.
Flush as described, (either you or the dealer), then take it there, have them download the latest software, it includes removal of the stop neutral.
Have them reset the adaptors and at that price you were given I would think it includes the 20 minute or so drive cycle to set the adaptions
This is a SPECIFIC drive cycle and MUST be done the first time it's driven after the adaptor reset.
It is important!
After that it will take about 2-300 miles for the tranny to fully adapt, then you will fell the full effect of all of this and you WILL feel it.
It may shift strangely for the first few start/run cycles but every one should feel better and better until you hit that 2-300 miles mark.
The more you do a start/drive cycle, the quicker it adapts
Good luck

jcb02

05-09-2008, 05:13 PM

Thanks Howardc64 & JRL for the informative and prompt responses. Thanks also Howardc64 for your experience database which I'm sure I'll use to investigate a few other potential problem areas. As to the case in point with the stop-neutral issue:
1 - I will do the fluid change myself by whatever method I eventually decide makes the most sense. While it most likely will be the Gibbons flush, my comments about introducing air into the system was not meant to imply that I see the trans system as a brake system devoid of air. My reservation was more to the technique of starting the engine and pumping fluid until air bubbles are evident in the line, which implies to me that air has been introduced into areas that normally only see fluid - solenoids, valves, etc. Perhaps not a big deal and any pockets will eventually clear, but just a concern. I suspect, without knowing, that the professional flushing system both supplies and removes oil at the same time, eliminating that concern. But, being the frugal guy that I am, I will flush it myself before having them do it ( $380-400 quoted from the two dealers using Volvo fluid ).
2 - Software - It sounds like # 30677036 is the one that eliminates the stop-neutral function and therefore the one that, unless convinced otherwise, I will tell them specifically to download. Again, I am not comfortable leaving it up to them to have their way - I've been burned before. Howardc64's experience sort of confirms the game-plan as I saw it. JRL, I know you are correct when you say that a test drive tuning of the adapters is a must after the adapters have been reset. My problem is that bulletin #43-38 specifically says "there is no need to reset the adaption to zero" after that download. Howardc64 reports that this was his experience and given that I am having no problem symptoms, why ask for potential problems, even disregarding the added cost?
I do thank both of you for your input and welcome further comments.

JRL

05-09-2008, 05:32 PM

Knock yourself out.
These download numbers change all the time.
All you do is ask for the LATEST download (which is what you will get anyway).

All the downloads are incorperated into the latest one and that's all the system will do, download the latest, there are not downloadS available, there is only one (1) download available

PGI007

05-09-2008, 08:13 PM

JRL

05-09-2008, 08:19 PM

Just out of curiosity, what would be the result if this specific sequence were not performed after a reset? The dealership reset the adapters on my 05 as a routine part of the CPO process before delivering the car to me, and I would assume they followed this protocol.

You're installing new software, resetting the adaptors will allow it to work nominally with the transmission. The only way you will get 100% performance is to start at 0

Forkster

05-10-2008, 08:17 AM

JRL - what are the adaptors you're referring to? (I want to put this in the FAQ)

jcb02

05-10-2008, 08:31 AM

Thanks JRL for "staying with me"! Your latest response is sinking in. Basically you're saying that they have only one software option no matter what download number I try to dictate. In this case that leads me to believe they would refer to TBB # 40-42, 2-12-07, which covers all years 1999-2007. I suppose the specific software part # is not listed in this bulletin because it is vehicle dependent. What is significant is that, unlike TBB # 43-38, it does call for an adaption reset & test drive afterward for a 2001 XC. After I change out the fluid, I will have this discussion with the dealer in more detail and go from there. I will report back in the end, but that may be a few weeks out.
I must admit that there is one thing that is still bugging me about this whole stop-neutral issue. Possibly it is the result of spending 35 yrs in a manufacturing plant where things often backfired even when done thoughtfully with the best of intentions. In this case, I cannot for the life of me detect the operation of stop-neutral, to the point of suspecting that it may not be there. ( I suspect even Howardc64 may have been wondering). When I come to a stop there is no sensation of the trans going into neutral. If I take my foot off the brake, the car rolls forward immediately without any hint of a re-engagement of drive. Likewise if I have my foot on the brake and shift over into manual, I have to use my imagination to detect a change of going from neutral back to drive. Both of these cases are totally different from the obvious shift sensation I get if I have the gear selector in neutral and then put it in drive. So one side of me says "what am I worried about?" Even if stop-neutral is there and functioning, through some type of electrical wizardry it is being done so subtly that one must ask how is this any more damaging than shifting through any of the other gears that's (normally) done automatically. I guess one could argue "why do it if you don't need to", or, why else would Volvo drop the concept and create software to remove it. Possibly a more significant argument would be that "the proof is in the pudding". Certainly there are enough complaints on these posts to persuade me to go ahead and remove it despite my reservations - yet in my ear I faintly hear that little voice from my manufacturing background saying, "don't fix it if it ain't broke".
So much for the soapbox - Thanks again.l

jcb02

05-10-2008, 08:40 AM

Just one other thought in an effort to verify whether stop-neutral is installed and functioning. If it is, there must be an electrical signal somewhere to indicate this. Given that, is there any reasonably accessible contact point that one could use a multimeter on for verification?

JRL

05-10-2008, 11:55 AM

"Tis real simple.
You may already have it removed!
When you ask for the latest tranny software to be installed, the computer will read the car, if it's already in the car will not accept it.

To the other poster, I can't tell you WHAT the adaptors are, but there are several and disconnecting the battery does not clear all of them. The tech has to specifially reset each one.
How can I explain it, your car's engine, ETM and tranny (ECU and TCU) "adapt" to the car and you.
Just changing your driving style will not change the adaption once it's been all "set".
By clearing them out, it's like a brand new car when it comes off the assembly line, it too has to adapt.
At the factory eery car is driven a few miles, then the odometer is reset, they start the apaptive process then the new dealer/owner finishes it but after those critical first 2-4 miles, they are "set", say 80%, and the new owner completes the process by driving it.
It takes at least a couple of hundred miles of stop and go driving for the adaptions to be 100 % SET.
You can feel it.
I just set the adaptors on the Laser Blue 2000 I have for sale,
It took a week of around town driving for it to feel and shift like new again
By resetting to "0", you're doing it all over and is necessary whenever new software is added or to correct some "bad habits' the computer has stored.
With my older R's I do it every 5-7500 miles, the transmission shifts better and smoother afterwards

jcb02

05-11-2008, 07:49 AM

AAH ! 'Twere it to be that simple, I would do it without hesitation. Your basic point is validated by TBB 40-02 - "If the message Invalid is received when ordering an Upgrade, and Status 134 is shown in the details, the control module already contains the latest software." Problem is, because my car is performing well, I could care less if I have the "latest" software. I am only doing this to get rid of the dreaded stop-neutral (at least as so described by many posts in this forum). I see the scenario as more likely to play out this way: As you have already pointed out, the software is continually being upgraded. So more than likely I will not have the "latest" because some other parameter totally unrelated to stop-neutral has been tweaked by a software engineer. The result - the download occurs anyway (even though stop-neutral may have previously been deleted on my car). This triggers the requirement for an adaption reset and adaption test drive. Perhaps I'm being overly simplistic because I don't understand how much flexibility the tech has, if any, in selecting only desired portions of the download.
More generally, I appreciated your insights as to how the adaption process works. I found it quite interesting to find that you felt it necessary to do an update at 5-7500 miles to optimize performance. Granted that this was on your older R cars, but still - Wow! With the same frequency as an oil change, that could get quite expensive. This does not speak well of Volvo's software engineers and hopefully they have made great strides with their most recent logic. While my knowledge of such things is very limited to say the least, as I see it a well designed program should not allow adaptors to get out of whack unless there is a significant mechanical or electrical degradation of the system - usually a component failure.
One final observation on the potential downside of frequent downloads: Reading through TBB 43-27 that describes the Adaption Procedures used by the tech on the test drive, I find a lot of potential for error either by an inexperienced tech or even by a good tech having a bad day. Phrases such as accelerate "lightly" to about 1400 RPM in 4th gear, and accelerate with a "higher throttle position to about 1800 RPM in 5th gear", and "make sure to keep the throttle steady", etc., etc - all the while watching for a flashing triangle, which by the way may "not always occur" because "not every shift will be perfect" - do not give me a warm fuzzy feeling and quite frankly suggest a procedure prone to human error.
So much for the soapbox - I'm off again to search for that elusive, and probably non-existent, wiring connection that will reveal the signal that tells the C1 (?) clutch to engage/disengage neutral ! Where are those old detailed electrical schematics when you need them ? ( Not that I was ever able to really understand them anyway, but it impressed the heck out of my wife! )

JRL

05-11-2008, 11:15 AM

Don't make so much out of it.
If you feel your car shifts fine, do the flush and be done.
As for me doing the adaptors often, this is with my 2000 R's, both are modified and one is modified (mine) a bit more, both were bought used.
My car (not my wife's) tranny is good, (hers is great, like new) but everytime I do the adaptions it gets just a teeny bit better and that's better than going a teeny bit worse as it gets older and more miles go on the transmission. I have the torque limiter removed AND it's chipped, so in 1st and 2 gears so I'm putting a (much) bigger strain on my transmission than normal usage, so it's better to be safe than sorry.

(Also it really doesn't cost me much, if anything. I swing by the dealerat around 6:00 PM, (I only live a mile from them) and if the tech's wrapping up his day I just give him a $10 dollar bill and he just does it for me. I know how to do my own drive adaptations as I drive off so they don't have to do that part)

jcb02

05-11-2008, 03:15 PM

JRL - Your first comment is right on. Once I get into something like this I do tend to make too much of it and get carried away. I appreciate your patience and time in allowing a new guy to express himself, whether or not you agree with his positions. When I purchased my wife's 2001 XC I realized that I would eventually be getting into some uncharted areas, so many of my comments are born out of the frustration of not being able to diagnose and correct problems myself. I knew trouble was brewing at the time of purchase when I found out that Volvo no longer offered a hard back set of service manuals, only downloaded manuals at a price prohibitive for the backyard mechanic. The ALLDATA system is better than nothing, but it only gives you the basics (and not very clearly at that). I mentioned that I have always done my own maintenance - because I am frugal, hate to complain to someone else when they have not done a job to my satisfaction, and most of all because I get a lot of satisfaction from doing it. I am the original owner of a 1975 245 wagon that I still frequently use, an 1986 740 Turbo wagon purchased nearly new which is sort of my main car, an 1989 XJS Coupe (a long story), and a 1966 P1800 ( not presently running and not sure if I'll ever be able to get the time to make it road worthy). I will not claim that any of these cars are in pristine shape, but I will say that I can't remember the last time I couldn't deal with a problem and had to take one to a shop. I relate all of the above for two reasons - to help explain my frustrations at not having enough data available to even begin to try to resolve such problems with the XC, and also to illustrate another of my flaws - a tendency to become too attached to things that I have put effort into and have served me well.
As to your situation with your cars, I now fully understand. You use them differently than I and have a good thing with the cost aspect. I admit your comment about doing the adaption road test yourself intrigued me. I'm assuming the guy who does the download sets up the conditions that allow you to complete that final step. However, if there is a way of triggering that action yourself and it has been addressed in other posts, I would appreciate a hint as to where to find it. ( on a slightly different note, I recall a post by "Gibbons" where he stated that he had learned from other posts how to display stored trouble codes on the operator message screen, but I have yet to locate related posts).
Anyway, I've consumed way too much of your time and not expecting a reply. I will eventually provide feedback on what transpire down the road - Thanks Again

JRL

05-11-2008, 04:00 PM

I have it somewhere, if I can find it, I'll send it to you.
Basically, it's starting out VERY SLOWLY with your foot barely on the gas pedal. You're supposed to let it upshift at 1500 rpm throughout the gears (up to 4th, it can't go into OD, too slow)
You need a level street with no traffic to do this exactly right. This isn't always possible, so there is a "fudge" area!
(I've always found this very hard to do but 1800 rpm is doable. You do that about 3 times until the shifts are smooth and move on and repeat, giving it a little more gas letting it shift at 2500. Continue doing this 2 or 3 times until it upshifts smoothly.
Then you're supposed to back up or something (I never do it).
After that (if the tranny is fine) it just gets better (if it's not perfect at this point), it takes about 2-300 miles before it becomes 100% "normal".
It WILL shift weird the 1st couple of times (don't panic) and becomes better quite quickly as it learns to shift all over again

jcb02

05-12-2008, 07:53 AM

The adaption procedure you describe sounds a bit like it the one I referenced a few posts ago in TBB #43-27, dated 1-22-04. Perhaps it is a more user friendly interpretation done by a tech. The part you're describing seems to be the first sequence to adapt "upshifts". This is followed by a separate sequence for "downshifts", then one for "garage shifts" which involves shifting between gears with a stationary car on a level surface (hence the term "garage"), and finally a sequence to adapt "neutral control" for those vehicles equipped with that feature. Note that this last sequence sort of brings me around full circle to the original question in my first post = does the new software eliminate stop-neutral or does it somehow just soften its operation. Including an adaptive procedure specifically for that feature suggests that at least as of 1-22-04 it had not been eliminated. Perhaps the software (30677036) that comes along later in TBB 43-38 does eliminate it, but as noted previously that TBB does not indicate what that software actually does. It only says in the end that an adaption reset is not required after the download, thereby suggesting to me that in fact it does get rid of it. To come full circle for the last time, this suggested to me the possibility of the more economical alternative of requesting the download of only that specific program (probably less than $100) rather than getting the "latest" download and test drive (at close to $200). As you have pointed out, a tech may not have the ability to honor that request.
So much for history. If I were more computer literate, I could probably find a way of copying TBB 43-27 onto a post for those that might be interested (although I'd probably get sued by ALLDATA or Volvo for copyright infringement).
JRL - Since I have the above TBB, there's probably no need for you to find your procedure and send it to me. In fact, in the end it would be useless to most of us without the ability to access the adaption mode. What still isn't clear to me is the prerequisite required for you to get into doing your own adaption test drive - is it the tech setting it up after doing his download ? or disconnecting the battery for awhile ? or some other innovative way that has been found for a do-it-yourselfer to initiate it ? One final question - when you are doing it yourself, are you using the "flashing triangle" to guide you as described in TBB 43-27 ?
Sorry, I thought I had already taken enough of your time!

JRL

05-12-2008, 12:27 PM

You have, asked and answered

MoeB

05-13-2008, 06:00 AM

Note that this last sequence sort of brings me around full circle to the original question in my first post = does the new software eliminate stop-neutral or does it somehow just soften its operation. Including an adaptive procedure specifically for that feature suggests that at least as of 1-22-04 it had not been eliminated. Perhaps the software (30677036) that comes along later in TBB 43-38 does eliminate it, but as noted previously that TBB does not indicate what that software actually does. It only says in the end that an adaption reset is not required after the download, thereby suggesting to me that in fact it does get rid of it.

I have no idea what early upgrades did, but the current TCM upgrade removes S/N completely. As JRL noted, there is only one "current" TCM software upgrade.

Just to clarify the adaptive strategy thing, these units do not have any parts called "adapters." Adaption refers to the TCM's continual process of monitoring a slew of data input from sensors and other modules, then governing the transmission's hydraulics to perform as designed. The TCM does this by comparing the trans operation against a stored "shift matrix." It then "learns" (adapts) the correct shift pressure and timing needed for each gear change based on the comparison between current performance and the matrix. The learned data is stored in EEPROM chips, which remembers it even if the power is cut.

Since the TCM's performance is only as good as the data it receives and the programming that processes it, if it gets bad data, or some part of the software program doesn't process data as intended, the transmission will "adapt" based on the bad data/buggy software and shift badly. Additionally, because the EEPROM data is based on current transmission performance behavior, it may need to be reset if the transmission's performance is altered in such a way as to render the learned data obsolete, e.g., due to repairs, upgrades, flushes, a faulty sensor/module that wacks out the TCM's adaptive process, etc.

On the '01 units, unfortunately, even if you get current with the software and have the unit reset/adapted, the damage may already be done by ~45k miles. That was my experience, anyway.

jcb02

05-13-2008, 07:53 AM

MoeB - Thanks for weighing in on this discussion. JRL has been patiently guiding me through my issues and you are basically confirming what he has already told me as to the software options.
I found your description of the adaptive process informative and I'm sure others will as well. Sorry if any of my prior posts misled anyone into thinking that adaptors were somehow a piece of hardware. ( Note that my comments about trying to find a wiring connection point were a semi-serious attempt at identifying a clearly measurable electrical signal to tell for certain on my XC that stop-neutral was indeed present and had shifted the trans to neutral ). My rather limited understanding of the adaptive process pretty much agrees with yours. To me, the whole purpose of an adaptive system is to take care of the gradual degradation/drift of the mechanics, electrics, or in this case driving styles. In my opinion, and you seem to state the same, it is only the larger disturbances, such as a component failure, that should dictate resetting the adaptors and starting over. I would have not considered a fluid flush in the latter category, but I may well be wrong in judging its impact on performance.
Anyway, my two cases of 3309 arrived yesterday and I'll be changing the fluid out in the next several weeks. At this point I'm leaning toward the "Artsmart" drain and refill vs. the "Gibbons" pumping method, but not firm yet. One reason is that I have plenty of oil, enough that using Artsmart's math I should easily wind up with less than 1/2 qt. of the old stuff remaining mixed at the end. I suspect this is at least comparable to the Gibbon's method although at the cost of a bit more oil. ( Note that relative to the "Artsmart" post in that very long fluid change thread , I only agree with his math as it applies to his method, not the Gibbon's method ). As to a software download, I'll cross that bridge later.
Your last comment is the one that concerns me most - that irreversible damage may well have already been done. I'm assuming that you (and most likely JRL), are attributing this mainly to stop-neutral (a feature that I have been unable to detect functioning). This really disappoints me. One of my earlier posts revealed how long I try to keep my vehicles going, and certainly I had the same in mind for this one. Given the potential negatives with the tranny, the viscous coupling, and the angle drive, perhaps my wife is right - we ought to reset our "personal adaptors", bite the bullet and go for a new one before something bad happens. After all, she likes the updated styling of the '08 ( I don't ), and also is partial to the light green ( vs. our ash gold ).
Thanks for the input.

MoeB

05-13-2008, 08:19 AM

I don't know what Volvo recommends, but I would guess they would not normally require a reset of the TCM with an ATF flush unless the old fluid was very oxidized and/or the friction coefficient between old and new ATF was dramatically different.

If you want to know how much wear your transmission has on it, take a sample of the ATF (suck a couple ounces out through the dipstick tube with a Mityvac or some such) and send it to an oil analysis lab. Assuming your ATF has not been changed out, the UOA will give you the level of wear metals, the viscosity, NOACK volatility and other parameters that will indicate the condition of the fluid and the unit. At 45k miles, mine had many, MANY times the normal level of wear metals and the fluid was trashed. Some wear metals were 30 times higher than normal. :(

Who knows...you may find that yours is OK. If it is, then maybe the S/N was removed before damage was done and you'll have a long-living tranny.

BTW, to tell if S/N is active, simply stop your car with the tranny in gear and wait a few seconds, then ease off the brake pedal. If you still have S/N you'll feel the trans go back into gear from neutral. Even though it was shifting smoothly, I could feel the S/N shift easily when we first bought ours.

jcb02

05-13-2008, 06:56 PM

MoeB - Sounds like you've suggested a game plan to me! = change oil, take a sample and have it tested, evaluate results and make the big decision to keep or unload, download new software depending on that decision (no sense throwing good money after bad). To that end :
As to testing the oil, a few questions if you will:
1 - Is there a best way to take the oil sample? To get the most representative sample, should it be taken hot after driving or does it matter? I have a hand type pump that I can suck it out of the dipstick hole, or should I just catch a portion as it drains out the drain plug during the change-out.
2 - I'll have to find a lab, which I suspect won't be a problem in my large metro area (or maybe that doesn't matter, as mailing a sample somewhere may be the norm). Either way, to evaluate the results, does the lab provide the standards to compare my sample against? (Quite frankly, you mention a few parameters that I don't have a clue about).
Finally, as to your suggested "simple" method of deciding whether stop-neutral is functioning on my car, I've tried it and, without using my imagination, would have to say I don't detect the re-engagement of drive meaning it's not happening. Problem with that conclusion is I'm the original owner, and there is absolutely no record of a software download that would have eliminated it. I was hoping to find that perhaps the some early 2001's didn't have it, yet reports seem to indicate all of that year did. ( Note that my chassis is a relatively early one, # 028482, which as a for instance puts it well before the range of probable B4 servo washer problems).
Anyway, thanks again for your input.

JRL

05-13-2008, 07:02 PM

Talk about going way too rediculous...
Anyhow BLACKSTONE labs is who everyone seems to use
Oh and your car has it. I had THE 1st 01 around, June 28th delivery, 2000, it came with it

mbsl98

05-14-2008, 07:09 AM

MoeB, I have read a couple of times that the current Volvo program will send a "transmission service" message based on its expectation that the ATF fluid needs to be changed. This is based on measuring various operating parameters such as load, temps, shift frequency, etc. and when the total of all of the tracked wear factors is reached, it deems the fluid in need of replacement. I have seen this cited as one of the reasons that Volvo dealers should do the ATF change -ie: so that they reset these accumulating measurements to r3eflect the clean fluid. I have already started doing routine partial ATF changes (at 18k) and am not worried about getting such a message in future, but curious if the program actually does such tracking and warnings. Any insights? Thanks

jcb02

05-14-2008, 07:19 AM

JRL - Thanks for the input on Blackstone Labs. MoeB - As their website provides all the info needed on taking a sample and evaluating it, no need to respond to my last two questions.
JRL - As to the opening comment of your last post, you may well be right! My normal mindset would be to change the oil, correct the software if needed, then keep my fingers crossed. Still, I have to consider the three often discussed major issues with this model year - trans, VC, and angle drive. Not that it would be the end of the world if one of these failed, it's the realization that after the repair one is still confronted with the same inherent design weaknesses. With perhaps the exception of the S/N elimination helping a replacement "semi-new" trans, why would anyone expect these problems to be behind them? ( Isn't that the definition of insanity? )
JRL & MoeB - Perhaps your personal experience with your 2001 XC's may help with my concerns. MoeB - It seems you still have your red XC. You discussed the lousy oil sample. Has the trans, or either of the other two mentioned components failed? JRL - Same question, but something is telling me it is no longer with you.

JRL

05-14-2008, 04:32 PM

MoeB, I have read a couple of times that the current Volvo program will send a "transmission service" message based on its expectation that the ATF fluid needs to be changed.Thanks

Yeah, guess what?
If you get that message, you're too late, the tranny is usually TOAST!

JRL

05-14-2008, 04:36 PM

jcb02

05-14-2008, 07:31 PM

JRL
I seem to detect a lot of sarcasm in your last two posts. I almost feel like apologizing to mbsl98 for the shortness of your response to him - he seemed to be asking a legitimate question. For starters, he was addressing MoeB, NOT YOU. Even I, as a new guy, could have given him a more coherent and informative (as well as civil) reply to his question. So what gives? I have been reading a lot of posts and know you go back a long way. More than that, I recognize your extensive knowledge base and appreciate how much you have helped others to understand a myriad of topics. Despite this, I have to wonder whether you may have been at this too long. I don't mean this as a harsh criticism, because I do know how irritating it can become to comment over and over on the same subject for those that haven't gotten the message.
I asked a rather simple question in my last post about your experience with your 20021 XC. All I get back is that you were a "beta tester", whatever the h... that means, and basically just deal with what you have. It's obvious that you have some type of "in" with Volvo or at least the dealer, so does that mean they took care of you after your "beta testing" when the car was trashed?
Sorry that I stumbled on this site while trying to research another issue. While I've learned a lot from the posts, I also recognize how skewed the database is by it's very nature and how easy it is to think "the sky is falling". While I realize that my continued prodding and probing may have irritated you, guess what, it was YOUR CHOICE to continue to respond.
And, by the way, I do have fun doing other things in my life. Believe it or not, my main efforts are currently not focused on cars, but rather completing the installation of two central air conditioning systems in my 78 yr old home. No, I have no training in HVAC, but that hasn't stopped me from tackling the project. And if you think car stuff is difficult, think again and try that. The guys on the HVAC forums are even more difficult to deal with. Unlike car repair which is viewed as a basic American right, they get pretty ticked off when they detect an outsider infiltrating their trade. But, guess what, I consider the effort both rewarding and FUN !

JRL

05-14-2008, 07:38 PM

I said that as I was the 1st 01 the have the software (customer).
I didn't like the clunk in and out from day 1. (I think I had about 15k on it when the SN was removed) it was a new car after that.
I find no enjoyment of working on my cars anymore, I have arthritis and 1/2 the time can't hold a tool anyway which is why I said stop obcessing about it as (2nd time now) as there's really nothing you can do about it, except flush the trans and do the software
Why worry, as Doris Day sung, what will be will be!

howardc64

05-14-2008, 08:36 PM

JRL, adaptation only updates the auto shift right? Manual shift is unaffected I presume?

The reason I ask is that the new auto shift profile in the latest TCM more or less masks the small 2-3 shift flare I have due to its much more gradual engagement from 2 to 3 when going up a reasonable grade. The only way I can detect the shift flair is manually shift from 2-3 up this grade.

jcb02

05-15-2008, 07:15 AM

JRL - First off, I want to apologize for getting going a bit too far in my last post. It had more to do with your response to mbsl98 than it did to me. Just seemed that your (understandable) irritation in dealing with me had spilled over onto someone else.
Actually, despite some sparring, we probably have more in common than you think. I've been retired for several years and don't enjoy doing my own maintenance as much as I once did. And it's not just my cars - I've inherited responsibility for the care of my kid's vehicles - Saab's, BMW's, whatever. And yeah, as you described, the joints don't behave like they use to - not too bad getting down under the car, but hell to pay going in the other direction. Fortunately, the hands still work pretty well so I'll just keep plugging along for as long as I can. Just wish that I had busted through my garage floor and put in the maintenance pit that I considered 25 years ago (always considered a mechanical lift too bulky for my situation).
As to dealing with my XC's issues, I was pretty sure I understood where you were coming from and sort of thought we were done after my #14 post. It was about that time that MoeB guy had to put in his two cents and stir the pot! Seriously, I have appreciated the input from both of you. By asking you and MoeB about your experiences with your 2001 XC's three potential sore spots, I was hoping to get beyond just the tranny issue and perhaps enter in a more general (yet practical) discussion of whether it makes sense to hang onto a car with potentially three expensive repair possibilities lurking below the surface. I figured if anyone knew how to deal with such things, it would be guys like you and MoeB. That's why I thought your actual experience important. To that end, sounds like as far as the trans issue goes, you were OK after an early on flush/S-N removal. (Interesting to note your comment that you didn't like the "clunk" from the very beginning - something that I still cannot detect at 41,000 miles - but I'm not going to open up that box again!).
I will try to take Doris Day's lyrics to heart - it's the kind of thing my wife chides me about. I suspect that a lot of visitors to this forum don't have a clue as to who Doris Day is. Ah, for the good 'ole days!

MoeB

05-15-2008, 11:22 AM

MoeB - It seems you still have your red XC. You discussed the lousy oil sample. Has the trans, or either of the other two mentioned components failed?

Yes, I bought ours used with 45k miles on it and the trans had to be replaced at 67k despite the ATF replacement and S/N removal. The trans worked fine when we bought it, and it continued to work for another 20k miles, despite the fact that the UOA taken at 45k miles showed that extreme wear had occurred.

BTW, oil analysis is a relatively cheap way to scientifically monitor the internal condition of your trans or engine. Sure, you can usually smell when ATF is burned up, but sometimes problems can exist even though the fluid is otherwise fine. For around $20 you get a lot of quantitative info about your car.

MoeB, I have read a couple of times that the current Volvo program will send a "transmission service" message based on its expectation that the ATF fluid needs to be changed. This is based on measuring various operating parameters such as load, temps, shift frequency, etc. and when the total of all of the tracked wear factors is reached, it deems the fluid in need of replacement.

I've read the same thing somehwere, but it's apparently not always (ever?) reliable. Mine showed no codes or messages at all, yet the original fluid was obviously cooked way beyond its serviceable condition and the trans was shot by 67k. JRL may be a harsh taskmaster, but I'd heed his advice and not rely on the Swedish electronics in these cars to protect it. :D

jcb02

05-15-2008, 06:49 PM

MoeB - Thanks for the input on your tranny history. While perhaps somewhat of a stretch, it gives some credence to taking seriously the results of oil sampling = poor test results, everything seems to be functioning OK, then disaster well within the normal expected time for failure. Obviously the effects of S/N will never be known. You have confirmed my prior decision to get an analysis and go from there.
Neither you nor JRL reported problems with the angle drive or the VC. That is encouraging if accurate. I must admit that I hopefully dodged a bullet several years ago at 26,000 miles. There was bothersome noise throughout the drive train, particularly at highway speeds and getting worse. It was then that I learned of the importance of keeping all four wheels at the same circumference. I had a problem with one tire that continued to leak after being repaired. More than once I found that tire in the 18-20 lb. range. The original STR's still had tread on them but generally were not wearing evenly compared to each other. While I was certain I had screwed something up through neglect, I decided to change out the tires. Afterward, everything seemed to settle back down. (I think to normal levels but, as you know, it is very hard to be sure of what normal really was).
Thanks again for the input.

MoeB

05-15-2008, 07:49 PM

Neither you nor JRL reported problems with the angle drive or the VC. That is encouraging if accurate.

The seals were leaking and replaced on my bevel gear at about 62k miles. Otherwise no issues.

JRL

05-15-2008, 08:26 PM

They ALL leak once every 50-70K miles
you just have to reseal them.
It always a good idea to have the bevel gear checked for dryness at every service.
As for the viscous coupling, that's sort of rare. Yes, they can fail but not very often.
Also driveshafts in P2's seem to be much better than in gen 1 cars

jcb02

05-16-2008, 05:47 AM

Thanks to both of you for the follow up detail on the other two potential sore spots. I found your experience encouraging and my concern level has lowered considerably as a result. I guess it just serves to reinforce the hazard of getting too carried away with forum posts.
In any case, I'll be changing out the fluid as the next step, and capturing a sample for testing at that time.

JRL

05-16-2008, 01:06 PM

While you're changing fluids, change the bevel gear fluid.
I'll bet it's awful.
I've replaced several, some with failrly low miles and it was goop that came out!! :eek:

jcb02

05-16-2008, 05:35 PM

JRL - Really appreciate the tip on the bevel gear fluid. While I'll have to review my ALLDATA info, it seemed to me that only a fill hole was shown for the bevel gear and not a drain. No problem if that's the case, I'll drain it as best I can with my hand pump. Also, I recall that it takes the same fluid as the trans, but I'll have to double check. If any of this conflicts with your views, I'd appreciate further guidance.
Thanks again.

JRL

05-16-2008, 06:27 PM

Aviator

05-16-2008, 07:21 PM

Also, I recall that it takes the same fluid as the trans, but I'll have to double check. If any of this conflicts with your views, I'd appreciate further guidance.

STOP !! The bevel gear does NOT take trans fluid !! It's a synthetic gear oil that goes in there. Get it from Volvo.

Dave.

jcb02

05-17-2008, 07:07 AM

Thanks both JRL & Aviator -
As to the type of fluid the bevel gear takes, I was pretty sure that somewhere I had read "transmission fluid", so I did some checking. Sure enough, at the end of ALLDATA's procedure "Replacing Bevel Gear Pinion Seal", it says to "only use transmission fluid P/N 1161513-5 ". In the general fluid section under " Angle Gear (Transfer Case)", they list "Volvo Trans Oil 1161648". Now I suspect that if I checked those specific part numbers they may be one and the same and the gear oil you reference, but it illustrates how sloppy terminology could lead one astray. If I was checking my car and found the bevel gear level low, there's a very good chance that I would not cross reference the part numbers and use, based on the words, trans fluid if I had it. Note that ALLDATA does list P/N 1161540-8 as Automatic Transmission Fluid, which I assume is correct.
At the risk of incurring someone's wrath, this morning I had one of those "glimmers of enlightenment" that often occur as one is waking. JRL pointed out previously that the main problem with the bevel gear is that they all leak eventually and require resealing. He also suggested changing out the fluid because of often finding it like "goop". So I wondered, is "goop" such a bad thing ? (Now mind you, I was in that waking up twilight zone!) At least to some degree it would stave off or minimize leaking. I'm not suggesting that it should be left in there when it started out in one form and later degraded into something else, but it does make me wonder if a different heavier weight lubricant would be more appropriate. Keep in mind that at the time I was thinking ATF vs the gear oil mentioned above, which may have more viscosity. As my bevel gear is currently not leaking, I would only use what is called for. But I wouldn't be surprised if some have substituted other stuff once seepage starts. I'm know the bevel gear is a very expensive part and one would not want to ruin it, but it also appears to be a rather basic gearbox that would not have the sensitivity to fluids that comes with the complexity of an automatic transmission. Note that for several years my Jag XJS has had a rather nasty power steering leak from the rack. I virtually filled it up with a Lucas brand power steering stop leak product (consistency of molasses when cold) that has made it a livable condition. It would be interesting to know if someone has tried something similar with the bevel gear and if so what the results were.
As I wrap this up, the thought just occurred to me that the confusion about fluids may be more due to me being sloppy than ALLDATA. In both cases noted above, they use the term "transmission" fluid, not "automatic transmission" fluid that I was reading into it. Perhaps the bevel gear and "manual" transmission fluid are the same.