Sequential transmission gear delay

[RobG]

Hello. Hopefully someone can tell me the potential cause of my problem. I purchased a 2004 XC70 in December. I had the TCM reset at Anglo Canadian Volvo here in Edmonton about a month after I received it so the vehicle would adjust to my driving habits. No problems until I did my first highway driving a month later. Now when I accelerate it seems as though sometimes the car isn't shifting to the next gear when it is supposed to as the RPM will shoot up for a second until it corrects itself. This does not happen often, maybe once out of 15 drives. What should I do? Have the TCM reset again? I called Anglo Canadian Volvo and asked them about this and they said since it doesn't happen all the time it may be difficult to figure out the cause. I'd appreciate all feedback. THANKS :)

[JRL]

Get all available software, flush the transmission, reset tranny adaptors and drive GENTLY for 20 or so miles.
You then should be fine.
Even with no shift flare it still takes about 1/2 second when you tap the lever for it to actually shift, you have to be "ahead of it"

[RobG]

The Volvo dealer told me that each software update cost about $100.00. How many possible updates would there be for the transmission? After driving yesterday, and experiencing the problem, I think the transmission is slipping into neutral sometimes while accelerating (switching between gears).

[JRL]

The Volvo dealer told me that each software update cost about $100.00. How many possible updates would there be for the transmission? After driving yesterday, and experiencing the problem, I think the transmission is slipping into neutral sometimes while accelerating (switching between gears).


THEIR cost for each software is about 35-40 bucks, work with that when you talk to them.
The labor for two should be the same as for one.
Usually they are lumped together, by that I mean if your transmission has two available they will come in one new download.
In reality it takes about 15-20 minutes tops to do this from start to finish

[Ragman]

I had the same problem a month ago. I flushed the tranny. The problem occured a couple times and then it was fine. Have not experienced it again in the past three weeks. I would flush the tranny or have it flushed before going for the software updates. After 30,000miles the fluid was opaque black...Couldn't even shine a light through it.

[RobG]

I had the same problem a month ago. I flushed the tranny. The problem occured a couple times and then it was fine. Have not experienced it again in the past three weeks. I would flush the tranny or have it flushed before going for the software updates. After 30,000miles the fluid was opaque black...Couldn't even shine a light through it.

Is yours a 2004?

I went in and talked with the Volvo repair specialists today. I am going to bring the car there on Thursday so they can scan it and try to come up with a diagnosis.

I asked about flushing the transmission and they recommend it every 96,000km (59,000miles). He said they don't replace the fluid because it is synthetic and doesn't need to be replaced but just diluted (cleaned).

I ordered a OBD II scanner from e-bay and should receive it later this week. Not sure if it would tell me much as far as this goes.

[Forkster]

There is a TSB for shift-flare issues - I had my software updated to resolve it. Of course, the new tranny software introduced new issues - like poor cruise control response (it stays in 5th gear wayyyy to long now).

I have a MY04 just like you so yes, there is a fix for it. I experienced exactly the same issues you had Rob. BTW - I'm in Calgary Alberta.

[RobG]

There is a TSB for shift-flare issues - I had my software updated to resolve it. Of course, the new tranny software introduced new issues - like poor cruise control response (it stays in 5th gear wayyyy to long now).

I have a MY04 just like you so yes, there is a fix for it. I experienced exactly the same issues you had Rob. BTW - I'm in Calgary Alberta.

This is what scares me...software updates introducing new issues. The Volvo dealer mentioned that to me when I asked them before if I should get any updates. They said if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I think my biggest mistake was getting the TCM reset as that could have caused the problem though it did begin about 6 weeks after the reset so really nothing makes sense...why did this flare begin to occur when the car is four years old?

[Ragman]

Software update was going to be my last choice for two reasons: first, it would cost over 100USD and second, if it didn't work I'd end up having to change the fluid anyway. My philosophy is to do what I can first. If the software updates worked it may just mask the fact that the tranny fluid is shot. Trust me, at 30,000mile that fluid needs to be replaced.

Besides, Volvo will probably reset the adaptive tuning and your transmission will have to "relearn" your driving style with poor fluid performance. Do a flush first. Drive it for about a hundred miles and let us know if it went away.

[RobG]

I checked my service receipt and I had the TCM adaptation reset on Jan 15. The flare problem started about a month later; after doing my first highway driving after the reset. Is it at all possible that having the TCM adaptation reset could have lead to this? I only had it reset because I bought it in December and wanted it to "learn" my driving habits...nothing was wrong for me to want it reset...I think I regret it now!

I also just checked the transmission fluid and it is red and smells fine.

The Volvo mechanics want to hook up the vehicle and read it which will cost me $105.00! I have a feeling that nothing is going to show up and it will be a waste of money.

Strange that this problem only started after having the reset done. And if software updates (for the transmission) were needed because of poor performance, wouldn't the symptoms have shown up long ago and not just two weeks ago?

[BillAileo]

You indicated that your Volvo specialist did not recommend replacing the fluid because it is synthetic. It is my understanding that the original Volvo ATF is Mobil 3309, a non-synthetic ATF meeting the JWS-3309 specification. Has somebody put something else into you transmission? How many miles are on the car?

Bill

[thebracko]

The AW55's with geartronic all require synthetic fluid.

[MoeB]

:rolleyes:Whoo boy...:rolleyes:

[mbsl98]

As the storm is about to be re-released regarding JS 3309 being synthetic or non-synthetic, I'd like to offer one view. Synthetic or not, transmission fluid does break down, and does need to be changed. Volvo istelf says to change it at 52K miles if doing trailer towing, for instance, (in your owners manual), and many Volvo tech's say that completely replacing it every 30-60k is excellent preventive maintenance. Lots of real world experiences on all the Volvo boards where changing tranny fluid has smoothed out transmission performance and shifting. Most of the big arguments seem to be whether to do a "flush", to do a full change using the "Gibbons" method with a disconnected hose from radiator, or to do more frequent partial changes, just dumping the 4 quarts or so that is in the pan (or sucking it out through filler tube) and replacing those 4 quarts.

If I were having flare issues, the first thing would be a fluid change, since it should be done once in a while anyway. It therefore doesn't cost you anything extra to try it, and after that, go on to moves like diagnosis fees and software updates.

[JRL]

The AW55's with geartronic all require synthetic fluid.

NO
3309, from Mobil, Volvo, Toyota, etc. is the original fluid and the correct replacement fluid. This is NOT synthetic fluid
Many Volvo techs and service writers call it synthetic as they
just don't know[mad2]

[Ragman]

I checked my service receipt and I had the TCM adaptation reset on Jan 15. The flare problem started about a month later; after doing my first highway driving after the reset. Is it at all possible that having the TCM adaptation reset could have lead to this? I only had it reset because I bought it in December and wanted it to "learn" my driving habits...nothing was wrong for me to want it reset...I think I regret it now!

I also just checked the transmission fluid and it is red and smells fine.

The Volvo mechanics want to hook up the vehicle and read it which will cost me $105.00! I have a feeling that nothing is going to show up and it will be a waste of money.

Strange that this problem only started after having the reset done. And if software updates (for the transmission) were needed because of poor performance, wouldn't the symptoms have shown up long ago and not just two weeks ago?


I don't know that the reset caused this or not. We did not reset ours and the shift flare began a couple months later anyway.

On the dip stick, it looks pink but that's a thin layer of fluid on a bright yellow dipstick. Fill a liter soda bottle with the stuff and see if it is as clean as you think. If it is, just pour it back in.

[RobG]

I don't know that the reset caused this or not. We did not reset ours and the shift flare began a couple months later anyway.

On the dip stick, it looks pink but that's a thin layer of fluid on a bright yellow dipstick. Fill a liter soda bottle with the stuff and see if it is as clean as you think. If it is, just pour it back in.

I examined the ATF closer and yes it does appear dark & dirty...definetly not red. At least it doesn't smell burnt!

[Ducatista]

But doesn't the transmission shift program reset every time you turn the car on?
And learn from there your driving mood this time?
This should be the logical way to intelligent shifting.

[Ragman]

I examined the ATF closer and yes it does appear dark & dirty...definetly not red. At least it doesn't smell burnt!

Somebody on an old thread had the oil examined in a lab and found the content high in metals. Somebody else claims that the cooling core is too small to adequately drop the fluid's temperature.

I have also read that 3309 is not well matched for this transmission.

Somewhere in there lays the truth. I have never had to include a transmission flush as a routine PM in any of my cars and I drive them well over 150000 without issues caused by a lack of maintenance (except for my XC'01-it developed tranny issues at 102,000miles) . Have the tranny flushed with the correct fluid or do it yourself. If all is well, you will see improvement w/i 100 miles.

[MoeB]

Somebody on an old thread had the oil examined in a lab and found the content high in metals. Somebody else claims that the cooling core is too small to adequately drop the fluid's temperature.

I have also read that 3309 is not well matched for this transmission.

Somewhere in there lays the truth.

You can see that ATF analysis here (http://tinyurl.com/ydj2lo). The sample was taken at 46k miles, just prior to being changed for the first time. Wear metals were many times higher than normal...in some cases over 30 times normal averages. The unit ran another 15k miles without problems, but began shifting erratically at 62k. Another TCM upgrade did not help, and at 67k the dealer said the trans was shot and it was replaced (under extended warranty, fortunately). Bear in mind that this is on a 2001 that still had the shift-neutral feature active when I bought it.

Here's what I've learned about these AW-5550s in a nutshell. These trannys are designed so that the clutches will slip under certain driving conditions. (These conditions occur frequently.) The slipping lock up will allow a difference of up to 200 rpm between the pump and turbine wheels. When it slips, it makes heat, which is added to the heat already generated by normal friction of clutches, bearings, etc. The unit is also designed to withstand a torque of 330 Nm in 1st and 2nd, and 350 Nm in 3rd, 4th and 5th. The 3309 fluid is a mineral based ATF with a specially designed additive pack that provides a high friction coefficient and resists thermal oxidation. All transmission fluid oxidizes over time. How fast depends on how much heat the fluid experiences. Even though the 3309 is designed to resist oxidation, clearly it can still oxidize pretty darn fast in these trannys. When it oxidizes, it turns to varnish that sticks to and coats the components. The varnish has the most prominent effect on the eight solenoids (five on-off and three PWM solenoids), causing them to be sluggish or stick. When one or more solenoids stick or move too slowly, the erratic shifting can result in additional excess clutch/band wear, torque, and friction, which produces even more heat. It's a vicious (or viscous ;)) cycle.

A lot depends on driving style, terrain, load, etc, but clearly the AW's design is harsh on ATF. I would recommend changing it regularly. I also suspect there are better fluids out there now. After all, 3309 was designed over 5 years ago.

[BillAileo]

MoeB,

That is a superb write up on our transmissions, thanks! My only comment is that if there is a better ATF than 3309 out there for these transmissions, I have been unable to find reference to it anywhere.


Bill

[MoeB]

Therein lies the rub. The newer ATFs will have to be tried, and only time will tell. Given the high failure rate and cost-of-replacement of these ATs, most people, myself included, are reluctant to substitute. The obvious candidates are newer multivehicle synthetics like Castrol Import, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Amsoil, etc. I haven't looked very close at specs on any but the Castrol, which is approved for use where 3309 is used (you showed that to me, Bill :)). You would need to compare any substitute with 3309 to see if it meets/exceeds specs.

[BillAileo]

MoeB,
To be honest I had completely forgotten about the Castrol release! Of course I'm not bold enough to be the guy who first tries it out....

Bill

[RobG]

Took the car in on Thursday. They did a full scan and of course just like I thought, nothing showed up in regards to the shift flare problem.

The mechanic asked my why I had the TCM adaptation reset in the first place if nothing was wrong (he doesn't like to reset it unless he absolutely has to). I told him because it was something that the guy at the Volvo dealer suggested to do as it would learn my driving habits quicker. The tech at the Volvo dealer also advised me to drive aggressively if I was the kind of driver that liked to get going. The mechanic on Thursday said I should have done the complete opposite. He reset the TCM adaptation again saying that it was not going to make the situation any worse, but hopefully better, and this time drive the car very gently. They also didn't charge for the reset where as the Volvo dealer charged me $77.40!

I just got VADIS so I looked in regards to the TCM adaptaion reset and it says "Resetting adaptation - carried out after replacing internal components or the entire transmission."

I'd like to know why the tech at Volvo recommended this to me because it sure sounds like it should not have been done. Wish I had have had VADIS and done a bit of research before I agreed to having it reset!

Well, Thursday and yesterday I drove gently and had no flare. Today I also drove gently but experienced the flare twice.

My next step is next month I am going for the transmission software upgrades and am going to have the ATF flushed out and replaced. This Volvo repair shop uses a synthetic fluid (should have gotten the exact kind) so I am thinking of buying my own Mobil 3309 and asking them to use that instead.

I'll say it again...very strange that my flare problem only started after the Volvo dealer reset the TCM adaptation!
I would not recommend anyone having this done just for the sake of it.

[JRL]

Wasting money.
You do the flush and the software, THEN the adaptations
The 2nd was right, you drive it VERY easily for 50-75 or so miles, under 4K rpm and VERY slow take offs

[RobG]

Wasting money.
You do the flush and the software, THEN the adaptations
The 2nd was right, you drive it VERY easily for 50-75 or so miles, under 4K rpm and VERY slow take offs

Makes sense. Had no reason to do anything at first. Unfortunately adaptations were done first (and not needed) on suggestion of the Volvo dealer service guy!

[RobG]

I don't think Mobil 3309 is available here in Canada. Any suggestions?

[Forkster]

Rob - since our Aisin-Warner trannies are actually TOYOTA made and designed (AW is a sub-division of Toyota), I use Toyota Type T-IV fluid. No issues. Actually, it's smooth as a baby's bottom. Makes sense - Toyota transmission -> Toyota Tranny Fluid. Expect your local Toyota dealer to sell it for $5-7 a bottle. The Gibbons method flush will take anywhere from 7-10 1L bottles. :)

[PierreC]

Rob - since our Aisin-Warner trannies are actually TOYOTA made and designed (AW is a sub-division of Toyota), I use Toyota Type T-IV fluid. No issues. Actually, it's smooth as a baby's bottom. Makes sense - Toyota transmission -> Toyota Tranny Fluid. Expect your local Toyota dealer to sell it for $5-7 a bottle. The Gibbons method flush will take anywhere from 7-10 1L bottles. :)

Better still, buy the 4 liter containers of T-IV and save more I bought 4 (= 16 liters) and flushed through 16.1 liters, as each container actually contains 4.1 - 4.15 liters - and I still had enough left to adjust the ATF to its correct level (another 100 ml or so).

[JRL]

Took the car in on Thursday. They did a full scan and of course just like I thought, nothing showed up in regards to the shift flare problem.

The mechanic asked my why I had the TCM adaptation reset in the first place if nothing was wrong (he doesn't like to reset it unless he absolutely has to). I told him because it was something that the guy at the Volvo dealer suggested to do as it would learn my driving habits quicker. The tech at the Volvo dealer also advised me to drive aggressively if I was the kind of driver that liked to get going. The mechanic on Thursday said I should have done the complete opposite. He reset the TCM adaptation again saying that it was not going to make the situation any worse, but hopefully better, and this time drive the car very gently. They also didn't charge for the reset where as the Volvo dealer charged me $77.40!

I just got VADIS so I looked in regards to the TCM adaptaion reset and it says "Resetting adaptation - carried out after replacing internal components or the entire transmission."

I'd like to know why the tech at Volvo recommended this to me because it sure sounds like it should not have been done. Wish I had have had VADIS and done a bit of research before I agreed to having it reset!

Well, Thursday and yesterday I drove gently and had no flare. Today I also drove gently but experienced the flare twice.

My next step is next month I am going for the transmission software upgrades and am going to have the ATF flushed out and replaced. This Volvo repair shop uses a synthetic fluid (should have gotten the exact kind) so I am thinking of buying my own Mobil 3309 and asking them to use that instead.

I'll say it again...very strange that my flare problem only started after the Volvo dealer reset the TCM adaptation!
I would not recommend anyone having this done just for the sake of it.

Not complete

This: "I just got VADIS so I looked in regards to the TCM adaptaion reset and it says "Resetting adaptation - carried out after replacing internal components or the entire transmission." is not complete. It should also say after new software is added or just to help poor shift quality

All wrong. The below is the drive cycle you (or the tech does) AFTER you reset the adaptors because of new software, a flush or a drive issue;

(Straight from the TNN for adaptations)
1. In order to perform the adaptation procedure the ATF temperature must be within
65-110°C (150-230°F). Accelerating the vehicle in Winter mode will help raise the fluid
temperature if it is below 65°C (150°F). A stall test should not be used to heat up the fluid. Read the temperature with VADIS. The adaptation will not be completed if the fluid temperature is not within this range.
2. With the ATF within the specified temperature range start driving the vehicle with light throttle. Using approximately 15% throttle keep a steady pedal through all the gears until 4th. gear is reached. It is not possible to reach 5th. gear with this pedal position. Repeat until the shift quality is OK at each gear change.
3. Repeat step 2 with approximately 25% pedal application. Keep a steady pedal through all the gears until 5th gear is reached.
4. Accelerate to approximately 45 mph (72 km/h) and decrease the speed by lightly applying the brake until the vehicle stops. This should take approximately 7 seconds. Repeat this until the quality of the downshifts are OK.
5. Apply the brake and put the gear selector in the P position. Move the lever to the R
position and wait 5 seconds. Move the selector back to P position and wait another 5
seconds. Repeat until the R engagement is OK.
6. Repeat the procedure in step 5 moving between N position and D position until the D
engagement is OK.

[okxc70]

Wasting money.
You do the flush and the software, THEN the adaptations
The 2nd was right, you drive it VERY easily for 50-75 or so miles, under 4K rpm and VERY slow take offs


How do you update the software yourself? I know the dealer will add lots of labor in addition to the upgrade.

Thanks

[JRL]

YOU can't. Dealer has to..

[MAT]

In Canada (Ontario at least) NOCO sells the Mobil 3309 at the commercial depot.

Typical 3 day order time.


MAT

[RobG]

Just wanted to say I did the complete tranny flush myself this weekend with Toyota Type T-IV and so far it is shifting smoother than before and flare problem seems to be solved *knock on wood* :D

WOW...the old tranny fluid was so dirty it was black! I can't believe Volvo doesn't recommend the flush. [mad2]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

This forum is the most amazing source of information and assistance for Volvo owners who love their cars!

[PierreC]

Just wanted to say I did the complete tranny flush myself this weekend with Toyota Type T-IV and so far it is shifting smoother than before and flare problem seems to be solved *knock on wood* :D

WOW...the old tranny fluid was so dirty it was black! I can't believe Volvo doesn't recommend the flush. [mad2]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

This forum is the most amazing source of information and assistance for Volvo owners who love their cars!

My experience almost to a T ... did the flush with T-IV in November last year at 109.000 km (just under 70.000 miles). The transmission was immediately smoother, but it still improved over the next 1000 miles or so and now - 6000 miles later - it is still as smooth as I can hope for. I had just installed a Magnefine tranny fluid filter to catch any nasties ... next flush will be at 180.000 km together with the "big" cambelt replacement service ... I have started saving already:D

[Trombles]

The fluid in my '02 appeared red on the dipstick, but after draining the tranny, I could see that it was quite opaque in volume. Check out the 'Big Transmission Post' about the Gibbons Method. Quite worth your while. Also I would read some of the information located in this post. http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16398 It seems as though there is a very specific process to giving the transmission the proper set up before normal driving.

[Trombles]

I ran 16 liters of Mobil 3309, in my '02 with 95000 miles. I don't think it had ever been flushed. Still opaque in the gallon-sized milk jugs that I was dumping from the cooler into.