ATF spec - Trans UPDATE

[jmoser]

UPDATED: In addition to Mobil 1, Castrol and Valvoline both confirm they have no ATF products for this application.  There may be a Mobil ATF that meets JWS3309 but it is only available in drums.  I have e-mailed Aisin directly to see if they know of any non-Volvo JWS3309 spec ATF.

____
Found my Tech Service Bulletin # 43-12 for 2001 V70 and other 2001 Volvo models.

"5 speed auto trans model AW 55-50SN requires ATF fluid type JWS-3309, volvo P/N 1161540. Dexron III / Mercon is NOT approved."

Did some research; JWS-3309 fluid is also referenced in some Toyota / Lexus applications (Toyota OEM Type T-IV.) This is a High Friction Modified (HFM) type fluid - some newer trans require more friction to lockup internal parts. It appears that these fluids are synthetic base stock.

Found a Toyota / Lexus TSB that clearly states that T-IV fluids cannot be used in Dexron applications and vice versa. I am skeptical of the Amsoil claims that their ATF is universal across both Dexron and HFM applications - by definition these should be mutually exclusive.

Mobil 1 is NOT HFM, their tech service told me not to use it for the Volvo.

Similarly Chrysler specs newer trans with proprietary ATF +4 HFM fluids, must buy from dealer.

It looks like more HFM replacement fluids are coming out from various oil companies, I am checking with Valvoline / Castrol etc to see if they have any JWS-3309 compatible ATF available. At the very least I think any HFM rated synthetic ATF would suffice for the XC, but I will do more research.

[cktan]

Hi Jmoser,

thanks for the excellent work and update for us.:thumbsup:

Did you manage to find if the toyota ATF type IV is also JWS3309? Any news from Aisin Warner? What is the oil that is JWS3309 spec'd that we can buy off the shelf without paying an arm and leg for Volvo original?http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif

Cheers and safe driving,
CK

[jmoser]

The only commercial JWS3309 spec ATF I can find is in bulk 55 gal drums only.

Toyota's ATF does not have any cross reference spec info on the bottle.

So . . . looks like the Volvo 'stealership' has got us after all.

[pico de luuks]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jmoser @ April 13 2004,15:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The only commercial JWS3309 spec ATF I can find is in bulk 55 gal drums only.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So how many do we need for a group buy? &nbsp;http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif &nbsp;http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Just kidding here, thanks for the effort http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif

http://xc70.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/pico.gif

[howardc64]

Put Amsoil Universal ATF in and get hard shifts all the time. Added Lubegard and it behaves a lot better in auto mode. Still have random hard shifts if I use manual shift mode.

Put Mobil 3309 back in and now everything is normal again.

[wilnis]

I have been able to find JWS 3309 in quart bottles from Boncosky Oil Company in Chicago, shipped to me in a case for $64.65, or about $5.40 qt UPS to my door. It worked well in a drain and fill in my 03 S40, and I will use in my 05 XC70 at 25,000 miles as both owners manuals call for JWS 3309. I have friends who have found this Mobil product on the shelves in larger communities than mine, but it is available now. I got mine in August 05. Regards-Bill

[nwxc70]

Are we saying Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is not applicable but that the Mobil 3309 is OK???

[howardc64]

I only tested the Amsoil Univerisal ATF which is a synthetic. The label on the back says 3309 compatible. But I got a lot of shift problems with this in my tranny. Have no data on Mobil synth ATF.

I only got the Amsoil synth ATF because I could not locate Mobil 3309 easily. Consequently, I ended up draining out $70 of Amsoil synth ATF.

I also have probably the same belief as most people that synth oil is better. But at least in this case, the proper friction of the fluid seems to be more important from what I learned on this thread.

The transmission can also undergo an adaptation mode (I think must use Volvo diag equipment to trigger) which I read you can teach the tranny how to shift smoothly. I read Volvo recommends this if you flush the ATF. I don't know if this adaptation procedure would have improved my shifting with Amsoil ATF.

I got mine 3309 from http://www.schultzlubricants.com/. Paid like $50 for a case of 12 + $18 shipping from MA to WA.

[BillAileo]

FWIW: Mobil does NOT claim that Mobil 1 synthetic ATF meets the 3309 standard applicable to the Asian Warner transmissions used in late model Volvos. If you use it in these transmissions you are likely to accomplish two things:

(1) Ending any warranty coverage;
(2) Generating transmission problems because it does not have the applicable friction modifiers.

Bill

[jmoser]

Clarification:

Mobil 1 ATF is NOT to be used in the XC. Mobil 1 is a Dexron type ATF, NOT Highly Friction Modified [HFM] as required for the Aisin transmission in the XC.

I believe the Amsoil 'universal' ATF claim is pure BS. ATF is either HFM or it is not [ie Dexron II/III;] these types of fluids are NOT interchangeable. I believe [IMHO] that the entire Amsoil brand is simply a consumer brand marketing gimmick [like Slick 50, etc.]

Find an ATF that meets the 3309 spec, order it if needed.

I BELIEVE that the newer spec Toyota T-IV ATF is compatible with 3309, you may try looking for Toyota ATF suppliers as well, easier to find than Volvo. Mobil 3309 says it meets both T-IV and Volvo specs for HFM ATF.

[mrtippy]

It looks like more HFM replacement fluids are coming out from various oil companies, I am checking with Valvoline / Castrol etc to see if they have any JWS-3309 compatible ATF available. At the very least I think any HFM rated synthetic ATF would suffice for the XC, but I will do more research.

I concur: ATF is JWS3309 or Dexron III but not both. JWS3309 is the ATF specifcation set by Aisin Warner, the manufacturer of the AW55-50 transmission. Any JWS3309 ATF should be ok in a Volvo.

This transmission is used by Toyota (who own 30% of AW), Nissan, Ford, GMC, Saab, Saturn and Volvo to name a few. Each sells a JWS3309 ATF under it own brand.

JWS3309 ATF is characterized by its additive package that is designed for the paper friction discs of the AW50 and for long change intervals.

There are at least 3 manufacturers of JWS3309 ATF: Mobil (JWS3309 ATF), Castrol (Transmax J), and Idemitsu (ATF HP, sold by Cottmann Transmissions amongst others). If I had to guess, Idemitsu is Toyota's OEM. FWIW, I suspect that none of these ATF's are purely synthetic (no big deal), but are blends of conventional and synthetic basestocks.

Given the design criteria for the JWS3309 specification, especially the long change interval, I would guess that there is not much to gain from an Amsoil product in this regard. They claim their Universal ATF is JWS3309, but I would like to see an explanation of how it can be optimized for Dexron III and JWS3309 (high friction).

[BillAileo]

FWIW: I'm not at all comfortable with the way Amsoil's website describes the uses of their universal ATF. They do NOT say that it meets the JWS 3309 specification. Rather they say:
"AMSOIL ATF is recommended for transmission, hydraulic and other applications requiring any of the following specifications"

....

"JWS 3309"

....

And the listing includes just about every transmission specification except for CVT transmissions.

With a transmission as expensive and sensitive as ours, I wouldn't purchase a fluid unless the manufacturer would state in writing that the fluid meets the applicable specification. That they "recommend" it is just not explicit enough. Besides, at least in this area, I've been able to purchase Mobil 3309 by the case from a regional distributor at a reasonable price.

Bill

[Prepo]

I am impressed by the technical level of this thread; the bootom line seems to be which is the best available ATF for a self performed fluid change. Do I understand correctly? I have had my transmission fluid replaced now twice at my request at the dealer. In each case, not only was the Volvo synthetric fluid expensive but involve a laborious transmission flush rather than just drain and fill. I was under the impression that the means to do a proper flush is not available to the average do-it-yourselfer. Am I missing somethinag here? Sorry to have butted into your technical interchange.

[howardc64]

Actually, Gibbons posted a DIY direction in this forum. 7-16 qts depending on your preference of how many % of old fluid you accept. Under 1 hour DIY at home.

http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5668

The longest time spent is "slowly" pouring the new ATF into the tranny. It backsup if you try to go faster. The air pockets also seems to need to "burp" once in awhile. So it gets blocked momentarily and ATF seeps out of the filler neck and leak down the tranny. The way I avoided this is to have wife pour slowly while I peeked from under to make sure we stop when ATF overflows momentarily. Once the air bubbles clear, you can pour again without any problem.

I read somewhere that Volvo 3309 isn't synthetic. A Volvo dealer parts manager also told me Chevron makes their 3309 ATF.

[BillAileo]

I too have followed Gibbons post to replace my transmission fluid and found the directions outstanding.

I also agree that Volvo 3309 is not synthetic.

Bill

[mrtippy]

This is a hot topic everywhere! Someone over at IH8mud forums got a response from Valvoline and Amsoil about jws 3309 compatibility and their fluids: http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=22580

Valvoline (Thom Smith, Technical Director, Valvoline Brand) never states that their Maxlife ATF is JWS3309 compliant, but says that it is ok to use in place of Toyota Type IV. Here's why:

"Valvoline has conducted in-house testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions. However, it is important to note that these vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife ATF."

He then goes on to say:

"Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. In the unlikely event that any transmission was to be damaged as a result of the use of MaxLife ATF, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL."

I take this to mean (obviously) that Aisin Warner or any of the vehicle manufacturers in question have not approved the Valvoline product (or at least are not saying so publicly--as none of them are ATF makers, they must be getting it somewhere...). Also, reading carefully, while we would hope that they tested it in actual transmissions, he doesn't actually say so--it could be a bench tested product! A likely scenario is that all the Camry 5-speed owners in Valvoline's lab got free ATF changes...

With regards to the OEM warranty, it is my understanding that it is the warranter's choice as to what is covered. If Volvo says only Volvo ATF, then that's it. If someone wants to say and or prove (expensive testing) that their product is JWS3309 compliant then it is up to them and their customer to take on the warranter in the case of a failure.

Valvoline's says their Maxlife ATF is ok for Toyota Type IV applications, but I find it intriguing that they do not say this on their website or product datasheet. http://www.valvoline.com/products/Maxlife%20ATF.pdf Personally, I would want to see it in B&W on the ATF bottle.

I'll go out on a limb here (but I give no warranty, expressed or implied...): will any of these ATF's ruin a transmission? Probably not, as they are all made from the same basic materials and all the companies are experienced ATF manufacturers. If one of these questionable JWS3309 compatible products is used (and as anecdotal info seems to imply) the tranny will work, maybe even acceptably, and if not, it will only suffer annoying performance reductions that shouldn't kill it in the short term; that is, if the ATF in question isn't working there is probably plenty enough time to change it out without penalty.

What's the difference in these ATFs? Basestock specification and (especially) the additives. Differences in the former are important, but availability should not be the issue. In the case of JWS3309, it is all in the latter--stabilizers and friction modifiers. Most of the newer products, JWS3309 and otherwise, are going for long life, i.e. extended change intervals. Is that hard to do? Not really. Realize that most of the ATF producers are blenders. Some may make their own base stocks, but ALL are probably buying in their additives--all of which are probably readily available on the open market. So, in theory, any ATF manufacturer should be able to make a JWS3309 product.

On second thought, maybe even the additives are no big deal. While the AW55 transmission's internal are not the same as other trannies, it operates on the same principles; what's to say that there isn't overlap on its ATF spec...

So, what's the big deal? The testing, it's expensive. So what can be done? Well, the OEM, Aisin Transmissions in this case, probably shelled out the big bucks and did the testing, which they had to, for the ATF company that made the fluid for them (Idemitsu?); and probably did it with Toyota's cooperation and help, as well. What can the other ATF mfrs do? If their pockets are deep enough, they do the testing, too or try to find an auto mfr (that wants a 2nd source) to share the expense, or reverse engineer their competitors products.

If Aisin or their OEM ATF supplier patented a formula (including any new proprietary additives) or the ATF application, there will be licensing and or royalties to use the JWS3309 specification; an incentive not to seek the JWS3309 specification.

What am I going to do? First, I think that the oem JWS3309 fluid that's in my V70 could go 100K miles, but I'll probably pump it out at 50K; I can afford it and like to skin my knuckles. :D I'm going to use Mobil JWS3309. It's available (and becoming more readily so), reasonably priced, seems to work well, and Mobil is states clearly that it is JWS3309. It's a no brainer.

[EvoRoadster]

Apparently Mazda has gotten in on the act being the Mazda 6 uses an AW transmission requiring JWS3309 spec fluid. Mazda has provided dealers with the following information on where to source the correct spec fluid:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:-CyLA-2xSkQJ:www.finishlineperformance.com/mazda6/docs/0013.pdf+jws3309&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6&client=safari

here is the pdf link:

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/mazda6/docs/0013.pdf.

[Blackstone]

I replaced the ATF fluid using Gibbons instructions. Thanks very much, it worked great. I went to the local Volvo dealer and they sold me a 12 litre box of BG Products, Inc. Synthetic ATF P/N 3123, Wichita, Kansas . The told me that they have done a lot of research into this product and it is the closest thing they have found to the Volvo ATF fluid.

They said that even as a dealer they found the Volvo fluid to be way too expensive for flushing. The box cost around $80US for 12 litres. Overall I am quite pleased with the results although the car, 2001 XC still has harsh shifts between 2nd & 3rd most always. The fluid was changed at 50K and was very dark. This was shortly after I purchased the car and the mysterious hard shifting started to occur. Best not to wait until 50K to change the fluid.

Does any one have any insight into why these hard shifts (jolts) occur? I suspect a sticking valve? the problem is worse at slow acceleration. Does this mean the transmission is on its way out? I do not have any warranty.

[Beau]

I'm planning on flushing my tranny soon. Where I live, there is no Mobil 3309 ATF, has anyone tried using the Toyta Type IV atf as a substitute?